Mechanical question, but not Nomad-related

[burkazoid]

I have a mechanical, but non-Nomad related question. I'm in the process of determining why my Durango won't start. All the lights come on, the solenoid clicks, but no turnover. I just replaced the battery. The former battery was 4 years plus, and leaking.

The replacement of the battery seemed to take care of the problem (a month or so) until today when it wouldn't start. When I replaced the battery, I had to clean the positive cable terminal, as it was caked with deposits. Part of the positive cable terminal broke off (a small part), but it still had (and has) plenty of contact with the battery terminal.

So, I'm working my way down to try and find the problem. I'm in the process of replacing the battery cables, which finally brings me to my question:

The positive cable is split, one end to the battery, one to the solenoid, and one to the PCM. In the PCM, the split from the positive cable is fused with the output wire from the alternator at the ring terminal, which connects to the PCM as one piece. Why is this? How am I supposed to swap out the positive cable if it's fused? Can I clip the wire from the positive cable, swap out the cables, and have them connect to the PCM separately?

Probably a stupid question, but I'm mechanically inclined so far that I can follow instructions to a T, but when it comes to a grand, overall big picture of how everything in a car works together, I'm lost.

I would appreciate any advice or suggestions anyone might have. I'd rather not pay $100+ to a dealer when I should be able to do this myself.

[jussmatt]

Hmmm...didn't want to leave you in the learch here....but I'm trying to visualize the issue and set up. Being of the visual type...do you have any images? The last thing I would do is clip a cable right now. When you say fused...is it really soldered together?? Or just might appear that way under a bunch of tape or a cover or sorts? Sorry I my questions sound stupid...like I said...just trying to get a pic in my mind here. Also...you might want to call the dealership and ask to "speak" with a mechanic. Most of the times, they don't have a problem helping out with some info over the phone...that is if you have a good dealership.... Just a thought...

[burkazoid]

Originally Posted by JussMatt

Hmmm...didn't want to leave you in the learch here....but I'm trying to visualize the issue and set up. Being of the visual type...do you have any images? The last thing I would do is clip a cable right now. When you say fused...is it really soldered together?? Or just might appear that way under a bunch of tape or a cover or sorts? Sorry I my questions sound stupid...like I said...just trying to get a pic in my mind here. Also...you might want to call the dealership and ask to "speak" with a mechanic. Most of the times, they don't have a problem helping out with some info over the phone...that is if you have a good dealership.... Just a thought...

No, important questions all. I'll take some pix after work today, and put them up and send out a link. The replacement cable I have is one of the generic one-size-fits-all, but it looks like I will have to get the real deal from the dealership. I'm going to call them during lunch like you advise, and get the lowdown.

Best,
B.

[Yellow Jacket]

You may also have a bad starter causing the problem.

[burkazoid]

Originally Posted by Yellow Jacket

You may also have a bad starter causing the problem.

Bob, well, that's what I'm thinking, but I'm slowly working my way down in that direction by replacing the cables first. On my model the solenoid and starter are all one piece, so that's not cheap. Also, I just got off the phone with the dealer and they can order the OEM part, but it's $100+, although it does include a replacement for the output from the alternator.

I realize I could probably just clip the end of the positive cable and put another terminal on it, but the cable it hardly long enough to fit over the batter terminal now.

Unfortunately, I'm leaning towards it being the starter/solenoid.

I'm not very good at searching for OEM parts on the Internet. Does anyone know of a good place to start?

[macmac]

I am not clear on what you mean either, but the hot cable is just a hot cable and anything coming off of it can be replaced with any old cabe large enough in dimeter of wire. So anything coming off can be replace with a like sized wire...

You can get an inductive AMP meter, which clamps on the wire right over the insulation. These come in under 70 amps and well over . I'ld say you need one rated to 600 amps.

I don't know book spec, but more or less a good starter draws 360 amps..

I was a foreign car tech and Dodge has the screwiest wiring I have ever witnessed. I even have a 1986 Conversion van, so I have a general idea of what is screwy and what isn't.

I also own a 84 4x4 chebbie plow rig which I bought in 87....

[jussmatt]

Just some thoughts running through my head about this issue.....

Corrosion can impede current dramatically!! I've seen where people have replaced just the ends of battery cables since the rest of the cable looked to be in great shape....only to find that the corrosion had worked it's way though the entire cable under the protective sheathing. That could have some effect... if the corrosion is on both cables and not allowing your new battery to charge properly. Of course... alternators, starters, and solenoids all have a part in the electrical system. Alternators will recharge the battery, thus keeping current steady and happy... starter is a switch/gear mechanism to force the motor to turn over... while the solenoid is a kind of switch. Granted all of these explanations are very "lay mens" type descriptions...but sometimes simple helps find the issue.

That being said...re-reading your issue...once you have a charged battery, it will start. I would think that the starter is working then. If the battery is not charging... then I would look to be an alternator. IMHO...if everything works... but seems to be 'lagging'...then like you, I would suspect the cables.

Peel back a small bit/strip of the sheathing in a couple of different places to see if there is any corrosion along the way...or if you have clear/clean copper or steel. You can always cover up the cuts with tape to make it safe again... but at least you'll be able to eliminate that issue without spending $100 first. Like macmac said...a good meter will help also. You can take some readings and see how much current is being sent/lost.

Like I said...just some thoughts.

[burkazoid]

I've checked the battery, and it's good. All electronics inside work fine. Also, I've checked the alternator output, and it's good, within specs. Trying to start, the solenoid simply clicks, but no turnover. When I recently replaced the batter I found that the positive cable terminal was massively corroded, so I clean it all out, and even put some of the corrosion inhibitor on the battery terminal. It was fine for right at a month, then click-click-click; no start. From what I understand on my model of Durango the starter and solenoid are serviced as a single unit.

I wanted to replace the positive cable since it's terminal was so badly corroded I figured it would be likely that the interior of the cable might have some corrosion as well. And, that's how I ended up asking questions here. ^)

I forgot to take pics of the postive cable and how it is fused with the output from the alternator, but I'm setting a reminder for me to do so today.

Best,
B.

[burkazoid]

Ok, here we go. Pix for all interested:

http://picasaweb.google.com/steven.c...ey=QdynBRVA9TE

You can see that the pigtail from the positive lead is fused with the output from the alternator. Not just tied in, but fused. It looks like it might have been soldered as well.

I did find an OEM replacement online for $54, but I'm waiting for a confirmation email of the part #. I'm not willing to take anything for granted, unless the part #'s match up exactly.

[basco]

Take a hammer or big wrench and tap on the solenoid real hard a few times and see if that helps

[ponch]

You probably want to replace the cable anyway, so I would order it. I would also price a starter. In the past, GMs had the worst starters. I had a 400 small block in an 83 camaro and that thing went through a few. I finally bought a remote solenoid kit and that took care of most of the issues.

Originally Posted by BurKaZoiD

Ok, here we go. Pix for all interested:

http://picasaweb.google.com/steven.c...ey=QdynBRVA9TE

You can see that the pigtail from the positive lead is fused with the output from the alternator. Not just tied in, but fused. It looks like it might have been soldered as well.

I did find an OEM replacement online for $54, but I'm waiting for a confirmation email of the part #. I'm not willing to take anything for granted, unless the part #'s match up exactly.

[Yellow Jacket]

After looking at your photos here's what I think about the cable. It appears that the cable attached to the positive post of the battery is a dual cable, one going to the starter/solenoid and the other going to the terminal on the fuse block. The end of the short red cable attached to the fuse block also appears to be two cables attached to one ring terminal. The other cable appears to be blue and I believe goes to your alternator. Just a few inches to the left of the fuse block and in the vicinity of the valve cover I see an indentation in the cable covered with heat-shrink tubing. I think this may be an in-line diode rather than a fuse. If so, it's purpose would be to allow current to flow from the alternator to the battery but not in the reverse direction. In either case, fuse or diode, it really doesn't matter to your issue. If I am correct in what I think I see in the photos the OEM cable replacement would be one cable assembly with three cables, one going to the starter/solenoid, one going to the fuse block terminal and the blue one going from the fuse block to the alternator. If you choose to replace the cable I would suggest that you get an actual OEM cable assembly rather than trying to jury rig something.

Now for a couple of things that could help you to determine if the cable is your problem.

First, if you have or can borrow a multi-meter (voltmeter). Set the meter to read DC volts at a range exceeding 12 volts (such as 0 to 24). Connect the red (positive) lead to the end of the cable attached to the starter/solenoid. Connect the black (negative) lead of the meter to a good ground. Write down the reading. Compare this voltage to a reading directly from the positive terminal on the battery to a good ground (the negative post on the battery will do). If the cable is good the voltage reading at the starter/solenoid should be no less than .1 - .3 volts less than directly across the battery. If you have a larger voltage drop than this the cable may be corroded internally.

Next, with the meter connected to the starter/solenoid, have someone turn the ignition key to the start position and hold it there long enough for you to read the voltage on the meter. Assuming that the starter doesn't try to crank, the voltage reading should still be no less than .1-.5 volts less than without the key turned to the start position. If you get a larger drop than this, the cable is probably corroded internally.

If you don't have access to a multi-meter try this method. Take a single jumper cable. Attach one end to the terminal on the starter/solenoid where the cable from the battery is attached. Attach this end first! Then attach the other end of the jumper cable to the positive post on the battery. Basically you now have a new cable connecting the battery and the starter/solenoid in parallel with the original cable. Try to start the engine. If it still just goes click, click. . .you most likely have a bad starter. If it starts up OK, then the original cable is bad. When you remove the jumper cable, disconnect the end from the battery first.

I know this was rather long-winded but I hope it is of some help.

Good luck!
Bob

[burkazoid]

Bob,

That does help, thanks. As you had warned, I certainly didn't want to "rig" anything. Gas prices might be terrible right now, but my Durango is paid for, so all I have to pay IS gas.

Going through from one item to the next, with the process of elimination, and verifying voltage and the like, I finally determined it was the starter that was bad. I got an OEM replacement from the dealer, and swapped it out Saturday. I thought I was going to die, it was so hot out there, but problem solved now.

I suppose I could have gotten someone else to fix it, but I figure I saved half the cost by doing it myself. I have to admit, I'm a little slow working on things, but I got it done nonetheless.

Thanks everyone for the assist.

Best,
B.

[jussmatt]

Glad you got it all fixed!!!! And you're right...I guarantee you saved a good amount of $$ by doing it yourself!!! Not to mention the satisfaction of sitting back and drinking a few cold ones admiring your accomplishments!!! LOL!

[Yellow Jacket]

Mission Accomplished! Glad it's fixed.

PS, I agree it makes more sense to keep something that's paid for until it absoultely has to be replaced. A car payment will buy a LOT of gas even at $4 a gal.