Gear whine

[dougster]

I know we have discussed this topic before. I am hearing a whine in 4th and 5th gears. I really started noticing it while I was on a weeklong bike trip last week.

1. It is intermittent. I don't hear it all the time, but it is more pronounced at some times than others.
2. It is not road noise or tire noise.
3. It is loudest (when it is making the noise) when I am maintaining higher speeds in 5th gear (around 75mph).
4. If I pull in the clutch, it disappears. It does not make the noise by revving the engine with the clutch pulled in.
5. It is less pronounced, and even absent, when I am accelerating or decelerating. But I can hear it some when decelerating.
6. I don't hear it in the lower three gears. (Even when up on the lift, listening with a dowel to the area).
7. I put it up on the lift, and ran through the gears, with light drag on the rear brake, and used a dowel to localize the sound. First time I did it, I could hear it in the gear box/u-joint area. Second time, it was gone.
8. The rear final drive is not making the sound. However, I am going to drain both the final drive, and the engine oil, and check both for shavings.

It seems to me that my problem is in the area of the front bevel gear. Can any of you see anything I am missing here? It seems it must be the bearing, u-joint, or bevel gear making the noise.

I plan to pull the rear end (wheel, swingarm, driveshaft) off and check the components. (Sure wish Mac or MAS or BD, etc lived close to me!)

I started to wonder if if might be possible that maybe the oil pipe on the top of the gear box might be partly clogged, and is sometimes not getting the oil to the bevel gears in the back of the box as well as it ought to, so they whine during those times, but not others?

Thanks in advance guys, for the help.

Doug

[Cajunrider]

Sounds like the bevel gear bearing may be going out. LW and Jim Dooley went through the same issue with LW's being worse (expensive) for the fix. Larry's got so hot that it fried his clutch fluid in the slave cylinder and actually caught fire burning wiring. Pull that drive shaft soon and take a good look in there. Also when you drain your engine oil, look closely for tiny shavings that could be coming from the bevel gear/bearings. Pull your oil screen out and look for the same.

[macmac]

The left side engine cover too, which means the shifters and floor board to access the bevel gear assesmbly. I think one of 2 bearings is sayin good bye. Great diagnostics...

The really bad news is the engine needs to be shifted to the right for the bevel gear case to get room to be pulled off.

See this thread page 2
http://www.vulcanbagger.com/phpBB3/v...23161&start=15

[jmorrow]

(Quote Doug)I plan to pull the rear end (wheel, swingarm, driveshaft) off and check the components. (Sure wish Mac or MAS or BD, etc lived close to me!)........................................
If your going to pull all this off, go ahead and pull the bevel drive gear (gear that connects to drive shaft)after you get the swing arm off. There are four bolts to be removed, then take a dead blow hammer and give a smack and it should come right off. Once the bevel drive gear is removed you can access the front bevel driven gear area. If the bearing is going bad there should be steel slivers or steel sparkles in the oil in the bottom of the gear case (or at least there was in mine). With a light the slivers/sparkles should be visible, if not stick you finger in and rub it around and sparkles will be in the oil on your finger.
The front bevel gear bearing on my wife's Nomad went bad in May 2010. If this is where your whine is coming from, just get a service manual and go to work, it's not a very difficult repair. It was just time consuming for me because I had never done any repairs as indepth as this before. Just take you time and double check your work.
http://www.vulcanbagger.com/phpBB3/v...ic.php?t=16455

[dougster]

Thanks. Follow up question.

If it is intermittent at this point, is it still safe to ride it at all?

And which bearing exactly? Is it the bearing #92045, or the bearing that is shown in the 13101A assembly, or #92116?
http://partstream.arinet.com/Image?a...TmKjBw2&ariz=3

[AlabamaNomadRider]

I wouldn't do a lot of riding Doug. The more you ride the of a problem you may have.

[ringadingh]

If you suspect the bevel gear, get it looked after sooner than later, if you leave it too long it can really make a mess in there.

[macmac]

I would say the bike is grounded untill this is fixed. If we are correct and I believe 'we' are, any further riding will create metal in the oil, and that won't do anything any good at all.

I haven't been in there myself yet. But of what I have seen of others in pictures, so far the gears have been ok, and the bearings are what fried, and broke up.

If a bearing were to gag up and bind and that were to spin the outter races in the case, then the case just became junk.

There is also risk of fire by friction, and the engine oil makes a great fuel, and or if ther gear set were to bind, the end result the forst time is gear teeth chips, and last the worst case senario, is a seized gear set all at once, which will lock the drive shaft, perhaps damaging the tranny, clutch, and kill you.

If it killed you, the other ruined parts would be of little concern.

The bike is probably ok to ride easy to a repair shop, and won't create a lot more metal, doing that, but you have the warning from that whine.

If you are going to do the work, there is no sence wasting any time.

BTW what happened with your sig picture with you and the Tetons in it?

[jmorrow]

Originally Posted by dougster

Thanks. Follow up question.

If it is intermittent at this point, is it still safe to ride it at all?

And which bearing exactly? Is it the bearing #92045, or the bearing that is shown in the 13101A assembly, or #92116?
http://partstream.arinet.com/Image?a...TmKjBw2&ariz=3

In my wife's Nomad it was bearing #92045 that had gone bad.
It would make the repair a lot simpler if it was 13101A or 92116, you wouldn't have to pull the motor.

[macmac]

Case number 41046 needs to be checked assembled, but off the case. If there is a hint of roughness turning that by hand the bearings need to be replaced, and of course seals.

Other wise if the gear rolls nicely, all it needs is cleaned, (make sure no chips are there)

Gathering related links
http://partstream.arinet.com/Image?a...TmKjBw2&ariz=3

http://www.vulcanbagger.com/phpBB3/v...23161&start=15

http://www.vulcanbagger.com/phpBB3/v...16455&start=30

[dougster]

I pulled off the rear end today, and the driven gear (the one that connects to the driveshaft.

Everything is smooth and firm. Nothing making any slop or noise. The bevel gears look good. No chipping, etc. They turn in their bearings smoothly. No catches or grinding, or binding. There didn't seem to be any play in the bearing (though I could not move the bearings in the gear case) I could see the baarings, balls, and races, and they all looked normal. No broken races, etc.

I drained the motor oil, and also checked the oil that was still in the gear case, right under the bevel gears and bearings, etc. I ran a magnet through the oil I drained out. Didn't really find any metal, except one extremely small bit in the oil that I drained out, but little else. Did not get any metal shavings out of the gear case.

The rear final drive turns smoothly, as well. I drained it, and could not feel any foreign bits in it. I will run a magnet through it yet, but I really don't think I will find anything.

Checked the u-joint, and it is clear in all planes.

If I could get the gear case off without pulling the engine, I would do it, just to be thorough. I am still puzzling over what I would HAVE to do to pull the gear case off. Jim, what all did you have to do to get that gear case off of your wife's bike last year? Any help you could give me would be helpful. PM me if you like.

I am kind of stumped right now. The noise was coming and going last week. I have really wondered if maybe that oil pipe on the top of the gear case might have been partially blocked, and was not getting as much oil to the bevel gears. It might have been getting some, but not as much as it is supposed to, and doing this intermittently, so that it would whine sometimes, but not others. I pulled it off, and blew it out, as well as blowing through the openings it attached to.

Any more input?
I took some pictures, but they were not very good. I will post them anyway, later tonight. I have to go help a guy with some plumbing, and maybe make a hospital visit tonight, also.

Mac, I don't remember which picture you are referring to. I suppose it is possible it somehow got taken off. I

[jmorrow]

Sounds like the bevel gear bearing is probably good if you didn't have any metal in the case or your oil. On my wife's Nomad it was VERY evident That metal was in the oil and gear case, there was sparkles all in the gear case and in the oil in the bottom of the gear case. I put a stick magnet in the bottom of the gear case and moved it around, when I removed it, it had about a half ounce of metal slivers and metal chips on it. All together I probably removed a bottom of the palm full of metal with the magnet.

To remove the front bevel gear case:
Remove the gas tank.
Disconnect any and all connection that prevent motor from being moved from the frame.
Remove crash bar.
Remove floor boards and brake petal, toe and heel shifters.
Put the swing arm back on and the right side shock.
With the Nomad on a motorcycle jack, jack it up to its highest point and block up under the front forks and under the swing arm.
Remove the sub frame on the right side.
Remove the motor mounts.
With everything disconnected that would prevent motor from moving lower the motor enough to just clear the frame over the top of the motor.
Gently pull the motor (on floor jack) to the right side about one or two inches, This will allow the bevel gear case to clear the lower left frame.
Go to reply #9 above (MAC's) and click on the bottom link, it shows how I had the Nomad blocked up, doesn't look real safe but it was stable.

Without your just looking for something to do I wouldn't pull the gear case. Noise on a motorcycle can be deceiving. My wife said she had been hearing a noise on the last three day rides we went on, but she thought it was her tires making it. Then about 30 mile from home one day the noise got really bad, (a loud squeal) mainly when she let off the throttle (I think this was due to when she let off the throttle the bevel gear was slacking and was rubbing against a steel bearing retainer on the gear case wall).
There has been three or four cases that I know of (KawaNow Members) having this bearing go bad (Mainly the 1500's---------one 1600). I just wrote it off as a bad bearing from the bearing manufacturer. It was apparent that the bearing on my wife's Nomad was receiving plenty lubrication. I even went as far as to start the Nomad when on the jack, with the driven gear remove, kicked it in gear and it slung oil out he hole where the driven gear was for about five feet (made a heck of a mess). :-/ ::) ::)
My tires make a whine sometime, depending on the type of pavement I'm riding on. Sometime it gets really noticeable.
Good luck, Jim

[dougster]

Thanks, Jim. Your reply is very helpful. I know what you are saying about the Nomad making all kinds of noises. I get kind of paranoid when I think I am hearing a new noise.

Right now, it is sitting in the garage, still in pieces. I wanted to wait till I heard back from several of you guys, before I put it all back together. I will probably try running it with the rear end off, (but with the driven gear assembly on!) and see if it will make the noise. I suspect it won't without a load on. Then I will take off the driven gear assembly, and see if it is all oiled up like it should be. If everything checks out, I will put it all back together, and go ride it and listen for the sound, then check it all over again. Just to be sure.

You know, I put Rotella 6 in the crankcase for the first time. I wonder if that might have been a reason for the new sound? Not that anything is wrong, but just different from before?

Thanks for all your input, guys.

[dougster]

Pics

[macmac]

Look like good pictures to me. I hope this isn't a tire noise from wear after all this work..... Get a few more pics backed up some showing near by parts and areas.

Be sure to get new swing arm seals, a new axel cotter pin, any head pipe gaskets, and perhaps a new driveshaft boot if yours is worn and cracking up.

For the moment I am stumpt. I hope Jim or another, Trosco I think was in there, have better answers.