Question for Obama Haters

[glwilson]

Originally Posted by blowndodge

Or we vote the bums out!

You are far too smart for that BD. You and I sat around drinking a Fat-Tire discussing this very issue in Custer, ND.

Once the balance has tipped to where there are more "takers" than "givers" it may be difficult, if not impossible, to vote them out... as long as the "takers" (being promised more "goods") turn out to vote.

[NRiderUSA]

Originally Posted by schoeney

I am hesitant to respond to this thread because I am not an Obama "hater" as stated in the title.

I just don't agree with most of his politics.

That would make you an Obama hater in the eyes of the cult of Obama worshippers.
Its not about and never will be about not agreeing with him.....its about the audacity of daring not to or even asking questions of the one's motivation.
If you have read any of these posts, it is not about hate, its not about color, its about his politics and his hate of what America is and what he believes he can make it into despite the constitution....welcome to the club.

[glwilson]

Speaking in response to someone's post earlier about letting the government control yet another program -- Obamacare; this would not be the first time a government program exceeded its projected cost.

When Medicare was passed in 1965, for example, the federal government estimated it would cost $12 billion in 1990.

Medicare actually cost $110 billion in 1990.

Talk about missing the mark! If one were to run their own business with these projections they would be bankrupt well before now. One would have to be a complete idiot (validated by any group of observers) to be given any vote of confidence with a track record like this. Thus one would have to be an a complete idiot to allow our government to run a national healthcare program that each and everyone is required by law to participate in.

Wake up... we are only months from a wall that many are not expecting. You have been warned...

[pagemastr]

Originally Posted by blowndodge

dmyers. I'm sorry your folks are in a dire condition I truly am. Life isn't always fair to everyone. there are birth defects, blindness at birth and many other "cruel" outcomes we all face.

My mom worked her whole life and retired as an RN at 64 years of age in 1995. She kept up medical by paying into it and came down with glioblastoma (the most deadly form of brain cancer) and died quickly. Her treatment was a hassle as her insurance knew that no matter how long they tried to extend her life, "glio" is always fatal. I learned to deal with lifes hard facts and didn't think there is a conspiracy in the medical care industry. And no, I feel the taxpayers spending hundreds of thousands of dollars (it IS the taxpayers money and NOT the Federal Gov't) on her is not right.

I don't understand liberalism at all. Against the death penalty but pro abortion. Extreme Naturalist and Environmentalist and think all the animals got it right and mankind came along and screwed everything up. Yet in the wild, say lions and tigers and wolves target the "disabled" and diseased animal thereby making the remaining heard stronger genetically.

What argument are you really going to stand by? By their own standards Liberals should be allowing the sick and weak and diseased with genetic heart, liver, lung, brain, blood problems die off and remove them from the rest of the heard to make mankind better.

If you say as humans that's not how we should treat other human beings then you drifting into "Christianity" theology. And we all know how liberals feel about Christians....

Sorry to hear what your mother went through, I am still blessed to have all of my parents living and with me so I can't imagine what it might have been like to watch her suffer through her illiness except to say my parents, both of them, suffering through cancer, heart attacks, being our parents, we share in their suffering.

For the sake of argument in regards to the rest of your posting: I understand conservatism and all, but explain to me how one can be pro-life yet totally support the death penalty... Texas?... anyone?... executes more people than any other state but Gov. Perry claims to be pro life? WTF? also... please tell me, as a Christian liberal, just how do liberals feel about Christians? Compassion comes to mind... but not feeling it in the posts I have read so far. Apparently for some here, political opinions prevail over Christian teachings. Being a Christian liberal is not an oxymoron any more than it is for a Christian conservative!

It is funny to read some of these posts and image to myself... just how many would tell an Insurance company; I understand why you are refusing treatment... it's Ok, I'll pick up the tens of thousands of expenses you are unwilling to cover... no matter, all the while you are thinking to yourselves the insurance company is being a bastard while your loved ones are suffering... thinking to yourself why the hell do I have insurance to begin with? I have had an insurance company dictate limits of coverage for me, against my Dr's advice, and it was probably the scariest periond of my life.

How many will take advantage of covering their unemployed / under employed kids until age 26? Would you tell your kids... oops, sorry, you are on your own at 18, you need to pay for your own coverage... oh, I know, tell them to not get sick or have a life threatening injury until they can afford insurance of their own. Blast Obama care all you want but the most outspoken will become hypocrites if something that benefits them from the law affects them personally and you will eagerly accept it! How much better could it have been if McConnel's main mission was not to be sure Obama was a one term President, and God forbid, he decided that universal health care was something of a worthy pursuit... Oh, forgive me... it was... at least until Obama was in favor of it.. look it up... Hypocrite comes to mind in this argument. It is like a broken record in regard to his policies!

It must be nice to be able to sit on these high perches, immune from life's daily misfortunes, expounding your conservative political and social views, blaming everything (with few exceptions) on President Obama and the liberals. Bottom line is that health care is broke, our political system is broke, being totally run by the special interests (ask why medicare part D is unable to negotiate drug prices with pharmaceutical companies) , and some seem OK with that in regards to fewer corporate lobbied regulations.

God forbid we should ask that insurance companies not deny coverage for something that might be a little expensive for them, no matter you have paid premiums for all of your working life to avoid these expenses..or worse yet, risk loosing coverage for a catastrophic illness. It just doesn't seem to be a problem in a conservatives' perfect little world... it is OK to protect the insurer's shareholder's profits. Before Obamacare, a lot of those who feel it was wrong are the very same ones who would benefit from the law, most of us our age who have pre-existing conditions (described as anything you have been under a Dr.'s care for in the past year), would until this law, have been denied coverage... look at your own health, and imagine trying to find coverage before Obamacare and ask yourselves honestly if you would have even been insurable prior to it!

So, imagine you loose your job, you lose our coverage, you might be diabetic, have a heart problem, or even have psoriasis... you would be denied coverage. So by your arguments against Obamacare, it would be OK for an insurance company to not offer you coverage under this circumstance? You would be outraged, being told by an insurer that your rates are three - four or more times the cost of a healthy persons coverage? I guess it is Ok that you are being discriminated against because you were prescribed medication for an illness in the past year while an insurance company demands these rates to provide you minimun covearge at best.

From the comments, I assume it must be OK that the insurance companies denied you coverage? You would be pissed, especially having to pay more for any coverage at all. Plavix comes to mind, a common drug used for heart patients... you might be paying a ~$20 deductable, while insured and if you loose coverage for a pre-exiting condition, you are now paying what, $200 / $300 a month for it... perhaps even on reduced unemployment benefits if laid off through no fault of your own? Ever recieved unemployment... must be nice... not fun at all but it provided food on my table until I found something better (at 1/3 the wage less benefits of my previous job)!

Companies, insurers, don't give a damn about you, us, and they are able to afford the lobbysts to legislate their point of view, all for the benefit of their bottom line... their clients... citizens (voters) be damned! So why is it and it can be verified with simple searches on youtube, why is it that most of the things in Obama care were things that Republicans supported until Obama decided it was something right for America? Even Romney has a hard time spinning back on that one!

One post mentioned the efficiency of Government: Medicare overhead: ~5%, while private insurers are up in arms that under Obamacare, they will be required to return 80% (20% for overhead and profits) of their premiums for insured care. Bottom line is that insurers only care about, their bottom line.

Damn, it feels great to be a liberal and give a s**t about my fellow Americans!

[glwilson]

Originally Posted by pagemastr

Sorry to hear what your mother went through, I am still blessed to have all of my parents living and with me so I can't imagine what it might have been like to watch her suffer through her illiness except to say my parents, both of them, suffering through cancer, heart attacks, being our parents, we share in their suffering.

For the sake of argument in regards to the rest of your posting: I understand conservatism and all, but explain to me how one can be pro-life yet totally support the death penalty... Texas?... anyone?... executes more people than any other state but Gov. Perry claims to be pro life? WTF? also... please tell me, as a Christian liberal, just how do liberals feel about Christians? Compassion comes to mind... but not feeling it in the posts I have read so far. Apparently for some here, political opinions prevail over Christian teachings. Being a Christian liberal is not an oxymoron any more than it is for a Christian conservative!

It is funny to read some of these posts and image to myself... just how many would tell an Insurance company; I understand why you are refusing treatment... it's Ok, I'll pick up the tens of thousands of expenses you are unwilling to cover... no matter, all the while you are thinking to yourselves the insurance company is being a bastard while your loved ones are suffering... thinking to yourself why the hell do I have insurance to begin with? I have had an insurance company dictate limits of coverage for me, against my Dr's advice, and it was probably the scariest periond of my life.

How many will take advantage of covering their unemployed / under employed kids until age 26? Would you tell your kids... oops, sorry, you are on your own at 18, you need to pay for your own coverage... oh, I know, tell them to not get sick or have a life threatening injury until they can afford insurance of their own. Blast Obama care all you want but the most outspoken will become hypocrites if something that benefits them from the law affects them personally and you will eagerly accept it! How much better could it have been if McConnel's main mission was not to be sure Obama was a one term President, and God forbid, he decided that universal health care was something of a worthy pursuit... Oh, forgive me... it was... at least until Obama was in favor of it.. look it up... Hypocrite comes to mind in this argument. It is like a broken record in regard to his policies!

It must be nice to be able to sit on these high perches, immune from life's daily misfortunes, expounding your conservative political and social views, blaming everything (with few exceptions) on President Obama and the liberals. Bottom line is that health care is broke, our political system is broke, being totally run by the special interests (ask why medicare part D is unable to negotiate drug prices with pharmaceutical companies) , and some seem OK with that in regards to fewer corporate lobbied regulations.

God forbid we should ask that insurance companies not deny coverage for something that might be a little expensive for them, no matter you have paid premiums for all of your working life to avoid these expenses..or worse yet, risk loosing coverage for a catastrophic illness. It just doesn't seem to be a problem in a conservatives' perfect little world... it is OK to protect the insurer's shareholder's profits. Before Obamacare, a lot of those who feel it was wrong are the very same ones who would benefit from the law, most of us our age who have pre-existing conditions (described as anything you have been under a Dr.'s care for in the past year), would until this law, have been denied coverage... look at your own health, and imagine trying to find coverage before Obamacare and ask yourselves honestly if you would have even been insurable prior to it!

So, imagine you loose your job, you lose our coverage, you might be diabetic, have a heart problem, or even have psoriasis... you would be denied coverage. So by your arguments against Obamacare, it would be OK for an insurance company to not offer you coverage under this circumstance? You would be outraged, being told by an insurer that your rates are three - four or more times the cost of a healthy persons coverage? I guess it is Ok that you are being discriminated against because you were prescribed medication for an illness in the past year while an insurance company demands these rates to provide you minimun covearge at best.

From the comments, I assume it must be OK that the insurance companies denied you coverage? You would be pissed, especially having to pay more for any coverage at all. Plavix comes to mind, a common drug used for heart patients... you might be paying a ~$20 deductable, while insured and if you loose coverage for a pre-exiting condition, you are now paying what, $200 / $300 a month for it... perhaps even on reduced unemployment benefits if laid off through no fault of your own? Ever recieved unemployment... must be nice... not fun at all but it provided food on my table until I found something better (at 1/3 the wage less benefits of my previous job)!

Companies, insurers, don't give a damn about you, us, and they are able to afford the lobbysts to legislate their point of view, all for the benefit of their bottom line... their clients... citizens (voters) be damned! So why is it and it can be verified with simple searches on youtube, why is it that most of the things in Obama care were things that Republicans supported until Obama decided it was something right for America? Even Romney has a hard time spinning back on that one!

One post mentioned the efficiency of Government: Medicare overhead: ~5%, while private insurers are up in arms that under Obamacare, they will be required to return 80% (20% for overhead and profits) of their premiums for insured care. Bottom line is that insurers only care about, their bottom line.

Damn, it feels great to be a liberal and give a s**t about my fellow Americans!

Ah geez Pagemastr... you spent a lot of time on this. Unfortunately I am NOT going to spend a lot of time responding to your response -- so I'll get to the point.

First off... YOU start a health insurance company with your own money and sell the insurance and then set-up the parameters under which you'll pay claims. It will not take you long to realize... you cannot cover everything. So in response to your apparent viewpoint that insurance companies are these "end to all ends" entities of great and endless financial resources that should be held to some moral responsibility to go bankrupt to cover people's healthcare bills is ridiculous.

Sorry, but I had to say it. We can discuss this further if you want.

Insurance companies are often looked at like they are an endless fountain of money to pay every single individual claim presented based on the insured needs. Sorry, but an insurance contract is a legal contract and their liabilities are most often clearly stated. If you didn't insure yourself enough... sorry but you'll be paying part of the bill. Certainly, I do NOT want to pay your bill -- period.

Second of all; since when are companies required to give a damn about anyone? If you are asking that to happen, then it wouldn't take long for a business to go bankrupt because the problems would start when "Suzie" at the front desk is having hard time so we should let her off work more often and pay her more until she gets things better. And "Frank" at the back office is also having similar problems... so we'll give him a break and pay him more money too. This crap is endless... so you are not speaking to reality.

I assume you have never owned or started a business given your remarks. You likely have never put your entire financial fortune at risk to run a business. I believe if you have, your opinions (while rather well thought out) are not close to reality.

Having said this... I will admit the healthcare "system" (to include insurance) is a broken system and needs attention; but certainly you don't expect to see good results from a government-run-and-regulated system do you?

Eventually, with the government running the healthcare system, you'll have individuals like you complaining about how it is poorly run or inefficient, or bloated with bureaucracy to a point people are suffering or dying. You'll want to throw more money at it... history proves this.

So, again, I appreciate a well thought out response; but clearly you are not seeing it from the same angle as others do. You are telling me you trust your government and have your fullest faith in its ability to run a national healthcare program.

I am here to tell you... you do NOT want this government running anything -- period. Just look at their record.

[NRiderUSA]

GL pretty well covered it.

All I'm going to add is liberals appear to believe only they have ever had to deal with getting laid off, only they have had to deal with unemployment and finding another job FOR LESS PAY, only their parents die badly, only they have had to pay for medicine cause their insurance wouldnt cover it....... you guys are so far off base in your thinking is what scares the conservatives.

The people who suffer in this system are as you and others have pointed out, the ones who worked their whole lifes to find out they arent covered... the ones that benefit are the ones who dont.... You can find free rides in our system for everyone who doesnt work or pops kids out for pay raises... but if you dare work for a living and try to use the system it isnt set up for that... and that will continue under Obama Care.... the clauses will continue, the rates will still rise, the medicines will still be high and by their own words rationed depending on how old or even how far along you are in a disease.

You and everyone else will become a commodity with a ROI (return on investment) statistic...... is it worth what it will cost to save you, how many years do you have left, will the medicine only extend your life, should they just try and make you comfortable with some drugs and let you die..... all the choices we have now on that kind of stuff will be gone.

The only people who are making out on this are the politicians you worship, but your to blind to see it.

They have stated that they wont even go onto this "GREATEST" plan ever, because they know what you wont listen too or see on facts that it wont work. If it was the great thing they are trying to get you to see....wouldnt they all hop on it too.....or did you not notice that?

Page you dont know me or anything about me, you dont know my stories and I'm not going to play into a pity party mentality because I dont understand.... I do, just as much as you and some others are trying to convience everyone else you do.

The health care needs to be addressed, but Obama care isnt the solution.

As a conservative... I prefer to get back up and try again, not lay around in the shit life throws at you whining and pissing about how unfair life is that someone else was born stronger or smarter or richer and it aint fair that he can do something or has something I cant do or have.... so cry about making laws to stop him from doing it....and my favorite its not fair "MAKE HIM GIVE ME SOME"..

I used to be left leaning when I was in my late teens... then I started seeing the realities of what "commune mentality" gets everyone........the leaders keep making out and the people keep getting screwed only worse because they signed their freedoms away to the dicks that were actually screwing them....and by the time they realize they been had...its too late.. look at all the exmples around the world even today fo the people trying to get a world close to ours and what their leaders do to them....for generations they have been trying to get out from under their leaders and into ours.

What you think is going to be the answer..... AINT, no matter how many ways you wish it would be, its been tried here over and over again in social engineering programs and still doesnt work, its been tried around the world in China, NKorea,Cuba... the list goes on and on...go live there and tell me how great it is and how their medical for everyone is working........as you wait your turn in line or wait for approval for that medicine........

Thats why I am a Conservative..I care about people too... BUT I ask questions and I am not looking for a hand out when things get tough... I'm looking for a hand up.....

[blowndodge]

Pagemastr your thoughts are well spelled out and I appreciate your approach. But as Greg point out, we are a capitalistic society. Driven by profit; period

Do you understand what that implies?? It implies that the kid on the corner selling lemonade is not out to quench the thirst of his fellow man and to provide thirst quench for the public. He/she's there to make a profit; period. Whether that kid's business flourishes is on the fact the his "customers" like the lemonade and the affordable cost. If they don't he/she must change and try to improve the product or go out of business.

there is no "social redeeming value" that is sought in his/her's business decision. Business turns a want into a need. Our gov't started out with capitalism as it's driving force for what every American might achieve

For you to believe business is driven by a social valuation your really saying you believe in Socialism..and that's ok if you can see and admit it. Problem is most Americans never want our society to be thought of as a Socialistic society.

How successful do you thing the two Gulf wars would have turned out if prior to it a Socialistic America would have commanded Rockwell, Northup/Grumman and other military outlets to build smart bombs, drones, patriot missiles, cruise missiles and told them they will make them at a predetermined gov't controlled cost? they wouldn't exist today. The makers of these products developed them and then came to the gov't with their ideas that we could launch an attack from afar with minimal loss of life with pinpoint accuracy guided by GPS. They saw a potential huge profit to be made if they turned a want into a need.

This is how we do business in the US. Is it a perfect system? No... but considering we've been a nation for only 235 odd years and have the richest citizens, highest standard of living and the strongest military on earth, we've done good. Our currency is still the most sought.

For O'bama to say we've had it wrong for so long shows that he's not a capitalist either. Business is not here to make us feel good. Prosperity of a nation comes from the function of a business not the function of Gov't.

[canedriver]

How about the canedriver plan.

No insurance required. Go to an ER get any treatment you want at any cost. Walk out the door and not pay a dime.

Dont want to pay your bill just declare bankruptcy and let the fellow citizens pay for it.

Oh wait we currently have that plan.

I like how instead of you guys demanding uninsured pay their fair share your willing to pay there bills for them by higher taxes and higher medical bills. Yeah that's financially responsible.

What gets me is republicans actually WANTED a healthcare requirement as an alternative to the clintons healthcare plan. Oh wait its different today. Its called government over reaching their authority. I like how you guys support the hypocrisy.

Romney even signed it into state law and called it a principle of personal responsibility. Oh wait that's right, now he is against it and playing to your fears and wants. Nice strategy as it seems to be working.

Scott Brown who ran on a platform to be the 41st vote against obama care also stated that In Massachusetts, it helped us deal with the very real problem of uncompensated care. Oh wait thats right he is against a health care requirement.

Some insurance companies even SUPPORT the plan. What they don't support is the penalty if you do not purchase insurance on the market and fall back to the penalty. They feel the penalty isn't high enough to encourage enrollment into their plans. The majority of insurance cmpanies and lobbyist were for the plan originally until obama reduced subsidies for the privatized version of Medicare a hugely profitable part of their business.

This debate has shown me a couple things.

Your being lead around like sheep by hypocrites.

You could care less about your fellow human beings as long as it doesn't effect you. Whats sad is it does in fact effect you right now you just don't realize or admit it.

[glwilson]

Originally Posted by canedriver

How about the canedriver plan.

No insurance required. Go to an ER get any treatment you want at any cost. Walk out the door and not pay a dime.

Dont want to pay your bill just declare bankruptcy and let the fellow citizens pay for it.

Oh wait we currently have that plan.

I like how instead of you guys demanding uninsured pay their fair share your willing to pay there bills for them by higher taxes and higher medical bills. Yeah that's financially responsible.

What gets me is republicans actually WANTED a healthcare requirement as an alternative to the clintons healthcare plan. Oh wait its different today. Its called government over reaching their authority. I like how you guys support the hypocrisy.

Romney even signed it into state law and called it a principle of personal responsibility. Oh wait that's right, now he is against it and playing to your fears and wants. Nice strategy as it seems to be working.

Scott Brown who ran on a platform to be the 41st vote against obama care also stated that In Massachusetts, it helped us deal with the very real problem of uncompensated care. Oh wait thats right he is against a health care requirement.

Some insurance companies even SUPPORT the plan. What they don't support is the penalty if you do not purchase insurance on the market and fall back to the penalty. They feel the penalty isn't high enough to encourage enrollment into their plans. The majority of insurance cmpanies and lobbyist were for the plan originally until obama reduced subsidies for the privatized version of Medicare a hugely profitable part of their business.

This debate has shown me a couple things.

Your being lead around like sheep by hypocrites.

You could care less about your fellow human beings as long as it doesn't effect you. Whats sad is it does in fact effect you right now you just don't realize or admit it.

No one has disagreed that the system needs repair and you do have a valid point about people getting care without insurance -- which costs everyone else. Point well taken; but again it is to the point that we all know the system needs repair. So please understand that.

The biggest difference between what you are saying and what "we" are saying is we do not want the government running our healthcare -- period. Regulations are likely going to be needed; but for the healthcare system to run by the same people that have a terrible record of providing "model" services and programs is just simply insane. There are also other issues that eventually will creep into it later; like outlawing dangerous and unhealthy behavior as deemed to be by the government. This is more than likely going to happen once the government runs, and pays for our healthcare...

Certainly you cannot tell me you think the government is an ideal "manager" of anything.

Thirdly, people are simply going to have to understand not everything regarding their healthcare is going to be covered. No one can possibly insure all health issues to their fullest (and that includes a taxpayer supported system).

[schoeney]

Originally Posted by blowndodge

Funny how we passed a Constitutional Ammendment for term limits for the President but Congress would never think of that for themselves...

I agree with you Shoeney... Plaintiff Liability has to be tackled carefully. I've heard of "loser pays all" remedy and I can't wrap my brain around that completely.

I would suggest any product liability claim that progresses to trial and the plaintiff's allogations are so weak that the outcome is one of No harm the jury should determine if the case was so frivilous the plaintiff bares costs... Otherwise large companies would take advantage of not thoroughly testing their products..

I agree Brad, winner takes all won't work. Plaintiff Liabilty needs to be proportionate to prevent the big guy from squashing the little guy. Not sure exactly how would be best.

If I sue you and I make 20k a year and you make 200k and I am sueing you for 100k, say your legal costs are 20k (10% of your income). If I lose I pay 10% of my income ($2000) toward your legal costs plus my own? Sounds like a start to something fair?

In the cases of sueing large corporations (20k versus $1 billion) maybe have a flat rate? Max at 20% of income?


The main purpose for plaintiff liability is to have a detterent for sue happy people/attorneys tying up the courts, looking for a free meal and adding needlesss costs to the taxpayers, insurance companies, businesses, consumers, and stress to innocent defendants. Kind of like a health insurance deductible/co-pay keeping the guy with the sniffles out of the emergency room.

In addition it would allow people to say and do what they feel is the right thing without worrying so much about the legal risks. Maybe doctors would not be so afraid to give a real diagnosis, maybe people would go back to speaking their mind instead of hiding behind politically correct phrases/terms.

Or maybe McDonald's new motto would be "the coffee is hot dumbass...don't spill it on yourself!"

[blowndodge]

Originally Posted by canedriver

This debate has shown me a couple things.

Your being lead around like sheep by hypocrites.

You could care less about your fellow human beings as long as it doesn't effect you. Whats sad is it does in fact effect you right now you just don't realize or admit it.

Really? is that what you got out of our debate disguised as an opinion? I thought most of what I read opposing O'bama sounded like "don't feed the animals, they'll be come dependent on us and not fend for themselves".

You create a society almost totally dependent on the gov't and they have no choice but to keep voting in Socialists politicians so these programs continue. What political party does that sound like? yea, that one. I most of us think that is the goal of democrats.. total control for years to come.

[waterman]

Cane,

Let me put it this way, I am not an Obama Hater but a government hater. Experience of government run insurance with my mother in law has soured me on any government run insurance program. She was in her early 50's and a family history of lung problems. She was placed on oxygen and still was working. The chemicals that were used at work probably expounded her lung issues.

At one point it was clear that she was going to have to have a lung transplant. A firtst they tried to get her on permanant disability and failed. Not sick enough according to them. She did have her lung transplant and still no disability. Not sick enough according to the govt. Now I pay into this program as does everyone else who pays taxes. I was starting to question how some people whom I knew were not exceptionally disabled were on disability and a person who could barely breath could not get on.

She had to try to stay working but her husband who was 10 years older than her had to stay working to maintain insurance. All this while I have seen people put on disability because of something minor or self inflicted. Hell, my sister in law (whom is a total nut case) is on disability because of migraines. These are self inflicted because if she would quit chain smoking and drinking Mt. Dew like I do water she more than likely wouldn't have these migraines.

So tell me this after going what our family has with government run programs. Do I want our government in control of all insurance?? Hell NO.

[ponch]

Originally Posted by blowndodge

Really? is that what you got out of our debate disguised as an opinion? I thought most of what I read opposing O'bama sounded like "don't feed the animals, they'll be come dependent on us and not fend for themselves".

You create a society almost totally dependent on the gov't and they have no choice but to keep voting in Socialists politicians so these programs continue. What political party does that sound like? yea, that one. I most of us think that is the goal of democrats.. total control for years to come.

Amen Brad.

Ego iam dixit quod...Tanta autem idem sentiunt mentibus.

[blowndodge]

thank you Ponch. ..

[glwilson]

We are all heartless bastards that want it all for ourselves and hope that most others just go away and die! Yes... that sounds like us. Geez... what a ridiculous statement 'cain'...

You simply do not know any of us well enough to make any statement like that. How much have you donated to charities last year... or so far this year? Huh? See... you don't know much about too many of us. Apparently you would be shocked at how generous some of us are.

Cain... your statement to that effect really is one of the issues I can't stand about liberals... They always base parts of the argument on the a falsehood that others (anyone who isn't a liberal) do not care about their fellow man.

I know there have been some statistics gathered about which politicians donate more to charities (data gathered from their tax-information)... the liberals or conservatives. Look it up. I believe you'll see the Republicans give far more to charity than the democrats. What you say? The heartless conservatives give more than the deeply-caring liberals give more of their money away? Ha! Really.

That very fact gets to the heart of the liberals philosophy... they would prefer to give other people's money away (via their laws) than to use their own money.

Hell the story that broke just two days ago about Oprah firing over half her staff in Chicago because it was losing her money goes directly against her public policy opinion about using taxpayers money to create jobs even if it is a losing proposition. If that is good enough for the government; then Oprah needs to practice what she preaches and continue to pay these people to create and maintain jobs -- even if she goes broke doing it! Geez... two-faced pieces of crap...