Engine Stutter around 2000rpm

[Old Blue]

My 09 voyager has the stutter around 2,000 rpm at steady throttle. Its not always there then it will start doing it for awhile. Its had the ecu recall done and now has the big three so the dealer dosent want to do anything with it.

[RACNRAY]

Voyager/Vaquero performance is all the same. I do believe the Nomad is the same also as all 3 of these make similar power on my dyno, but the Nomad has different mufflers. As long as they are the same internally (which I believe they are) then the power variations I see in stock skoots is due to allowable manufacturing tolerances.

Thru the years I have been fortunate to ride, work on, dyno and tune many (and I do mean many) skoots. You just would not believe what I see in these mass-produced skoots. Lotsa variations which contribute to different power outputs of the same year/make/model.

We had a customer that bought a new 2006 GSXR 1000. This thing made the best power out of a stock skoot, and with the pipe/filter/PC/custom map mad huge gains. Well he ended up flipping it over while on a wheelie and the skoot was totaled.

He replaced it with another 2006 GSXR1000 that sadly made 7 H.P. LESS than the first one. Boy oh boy was he very sad.

Due to these tolerances there are gonna be some similarities in performance and quality of running, and there are gonna be some standouts that are exceptionally good running and poor running skoots.

We never know what we're gonna get.

RACNRAY

[Mav1]

Originally Posted by Old Blue

My 09 voyager has the stutter around 2,000 rpm at steady throttle. Its not always there then it will start doing it for awhile. Its had the ecu recall done and now has the big three so the dealer dosent want to do anything with it.

Sounds like a crappy Dealer. The dealer I work with is family owned and they have been awesome! Whatever mods I made on my 900 they always worked with me and stood by the product. Same with the new Vaquero. They are even offering advice and help with some mods and tell me the warranty will not be affected.
Hope you can find a better Dealer to work with.

[Snake Ranch]

Originally Posted by RACNRAY

Voyager/Vaquero performance is all the same. I do believe the Nomad is the same also as all 3 of these make similar power on my dyno, but the Nomad has different mufflers. As long as they are the same internally (which I believe they are) then the power variations I see in stock skoots is due to allowable manufacturing tolerances.

Thru the years I have been fortunate to ride, work on, dyno and tune many (and I do mean many) skoots. You just would not believe what I see in these mass-produced skoots. Lotsa variations which contribute to different power outputs of the same year/make/model.

We had a customer that bought a new 2006 GSXR 1000. This thing made the best power out of a stock skoot, and with the pipe/filter/PC/custom map mad huge gains. Well he ended up flipping it over while on a wheelie and the skoot was totaled.

He replaced it with another 2006 GSXR1000 that sadly made 7 H.P. LESS than the first one. Boy oh boy was he very sad.

Due to these tolerances there are gonna be some similarities in performance and quality of running, and there are gonna be some standouts that are exceptionally good running and poor running skoots.

We never know what we're gonna get.

RACNRAY

+1, but where do you draw the line, and am not referring to horsepower, torque, or fuel milage, but the lack of control. The ability to have a smooth homogenous throttle input with your hand, and not having the engine doing the herky jerky dance. This thing leaves me with the feeling I'm traveling with a crazy person and I never know what it is going to do next.

After going to five dealers, I finally was able to get Kawasaki to take a look at my skoot to pinpoint the CAUSE. But after almost a month the best they could do was make it worse. Kawasaki's rep rode a new Vaquero said it did the same thing as mine and said the factory is not going to go any farther with this. He didn't say there was not a problem, just said Kawasaki didn't want to spend any more money on this. Deny, deny, deny. One dealer kinda referred to me as, you just don't know how to ride.

The tech that worked on my skoot talked as if he had his ducks in a row. He explained the different attempts to isolate the cause. But the system would not cooperate. What he did observe was the throttle plates modulating back and forth without any hand/throttle input. He thought the problem might be in the throttle assembly. But he could not go any further.

The question I have right now, is there any voltage signal from the ECU to the throttle plate servo, causing the throttle plates to modulate back and forth, or are the throttle plates moving on their own? Is there enough tolerance in the servo to throttle valve shaft to allow this movement? This might explain why some Vaquero and Voyager owners experience this and some don't.

[sgoyette]

Originally Posted by Snake Ranch

I spoke to the president of NORCAL VOYAGERS club today. His name is Don Medina, and he reports there are owners of Voyagers who experience this herky jerky issue with the 1700's. So this issue is not isolated to the Vaquero's.

Yah, I was going to say that my bike is a Voyager.

Steve

[sgoyette]

So I'm now wondering if I want to go through the pain of trying to get the dealer to stand behind the bike. I've ordered the gasket from Thunder Mfg and will see if that helps at all (this assumes it's a leak). Gasket is ~$7 (shipping on the other hand...yikes!) so worth it just to see if it helps. If it doesn't then I'm going to have to do some serious thinking. One of the reasons I bought this bike was for the 3 year warranty but if it's going to be a hassle every time the bike needs repair then it's not much of a warranty.

Will see what difference the gasket makes.

Steve

[RACNRAY]

Originally Posted by Snake Ranch

+1, but where do you draw the line, and am not referring to horsepower, torque, or fuel milage, but the lack of control. The ability to have a smooth homogenous throttle input with your hand, and not having the engine doing the herky jerky dance. This thing leaves me with the feeling I'm traveling with a crazy person and I never know what it is going to do next.

After going to five dealers, I finally was able to get Kawasaki to take a look at my skoot to pinpoint the CAUSE. But after almost a month the best they could do was make it worse. Kawasaki's rep rode a new Vaquero said it did the same thing as mine and said the factory is not going to go any farther with this. He didn't say there was not a problem, just said Kawasaki didn't want to spend any more money on this. Deny, deny, deny. One dealer kinda referred to me as, you just don't know how to ride.

The tech that worked on my skoot talked as if he had his ducks in a row. He explained the different attempts to isolate the cause. But the system would not cooperate. What he did observe was the throttle plates modulating back and forth without any hand/throttle input. He thought the problem might be in the throttle assembly. But he could not go any further.

The question I have right now, is there any voltage signal from the ECU to the throttle plate servo, causing the throttle plates to modulate back and forth, or are the throttle plates moving on their own? Is there enough tolerance in the servo to throttle valve shaft to allow this movement? This might explain why some Vaquero and Voyager owners experience this and some don't.

Call me at my shop, I'd like to help. I know I can ask questions faster when talking!

954-455-9665 florida time.

RACNRAY

[Boscoe]

Keep us posted, guys!
My '11 Voyager has a nasty hesitation when the engine is cold when giving it any throttle from idle. I am sure that it is way too lean. Idle lopes and is not steady speed ever. I am under the KGTP but fear my dealer will probably not find anything wrong with it too.

[Snake Ranch]

Originally Posted by Boscoe

Keep us posted, guys!
My '11 Voyager has a nasty hesitation when the engine is cold when giving it any throttle from idle. I am sure that it is way too lean. Idle lopes and is not steady speed ever. I am under the KGTP but fear my dealer will probably not find anything wrong with it too.

My gut feeling is the dealers don't have enough information with the causes of the herky jerky issues. And the factory won't go in the direction of clearing the problem because if they did they might have a very large chunk of egg on their face. I was told by one dealer, Suzuki had a problem that sounds like what these bikes are doing and they finally had to rewrite the code for the ECU to correct the problem. OMG that might create a large recall. So if the mother factory says they don't see a problem, then there is no problem. BS can baffle some people some of the time but it can't baffle all the people ALL the time.

STICK TO YOUR GUNS AND DON'T GO AWAY.

There is the root cause of this problem. Everything else is just the effects of it. When they don't know they try to formulate a response that will fit the problem to make you go away. They already have your money. Sooo who has the advantage?

[Boscoe]

I arbitrate automotive lemon law cases. The disputes between customers and the auto manufacturers are usually about whether or not a vehicle condition is a defect or a characteristic. If it is a defect, the manufacturer must fix it. If I determine that it is a characteristic ("they all do it", "that's how it was designed"), then the customer has to live with it. To help decide if a condition is a defect or just a characteristic, there is a simple test: A defect substantially impairs the use, value, or safety. A characteristic does not.

If you want Kawasaki to fix it, you are going to have to convince them that the problem substantially impairs the use, value, or safety of the bike. I'm not sure this one qualifies, based on what I have read and what I have experienced.

[Tynker]

Thunder will refund $6+ as the mail price is wrong.

[Snake Ranch]

Originally Posted by Boscoe

I arbitrate automotive lemon law cases. The disputes between customers and the auto manufacturers are usually about whether or not a vehicle condition is a defect or a characteristic. If it is a defect, the manufacturer must fix it. If I determine that it is a characteristic ("they all do it", "that's how it was designed"), then the customer has to live with it. To help decide if a condition is a defect or just a characteristic, there is a simple test: A defect substantially impairs the use, value, or safety. A characteristic does not.

If you want Kawasaki to fix it, you are going to have to convince them that the problem substantially impairs the use, value, or safety of the bike. I'm not sure this one qualifies, based on what I have read and what I have experienced.

I like what you said,"substantially impairs the use, value, or SAFETY of the bike. The jerkiness of this engine serge can be so hard my wife will strike the back of my helmet with her helmet when the engine suddenly drops rpm or it can take off on its own without any warning just as hard. So if this thing has a mind of its own and makes one of these sudden moves in a turn, say with wet conditions, I'm led to believe I might brake traction and drop my ride. I'm pretty sure that would be unsafe. If it is not in MY CONTROL, THEN IT IS OUT OF CONTROL. There is a primary cause of this happening, and Kawasaki is not being forthright with an explanation as to the primary cause.

[Snake Ranch]

Originally Posted by Boscoe

I arbitrate automotive lemon law cases. The disputes between customers and the auto manufacturers are usually about whether or not a vehicle condition is a defect or a characteristic. If it is a defect, the manufacturer must fix it. If I determine that it is a characteristic ("they all do it", "that's how it was designed"), then the customer has to live with it. To help decide if a condition is a defect or just a characteristic, there is a simple test: A defect substantially impairs the use, value, or safety. A characteristic does not.

If you want Kawasaki to fix it, you are going to have to convince them that the problem substantially impairs the use, value, or safety of the bike. I'm not sure this one qualifies, based on what I have read and what I have experienced.

All manufacturing design could be considered "characteristic". It sounds like the burden of proof falls on the consumer. My question is, How is it viewed when a characteristic design leads to an unsafe condition, but is not a defect.

A defect I would think is something that had a design characteristic and then failed or broke not meeting the life expectancy.

Boscoe; is there any chance we could speak on the phone?

[Boscoe]

Defective design? That would be considered a defect.

I am not a lawyer, and I was only describing how we see these things in a specific alternative dispute settlement program that the manufacturer has already agreed to. I just thought it might be helpful to throw this out as to how Kawasaki would likely defend this. Yes, the burden of proof is on the consumer. "Buyer beware".

You might want to file a complaint with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, but they only seem to act if there are large numbers of similar complaints.

Hiring a lawyer and suing would probably be pointless, as your little lawyer vs. Kawasaki Motors hired gun$ legal team.

Sorry to be so negative. Probably easiest to sell the bike and move on...

[Snake Ranch]

Originally Posted by Boscoe

Defective design? That would be considered a defect.

I am not a lawyer, and I was only describing how we see these things in a specific alternative dispute settlement program that the manufacturer has already agreed to. I just thought it might be helpful to throw this out as to how Kawasaki would likely defend this. Yes, the burden of proof is on the consumer. "Buyer beware".

You might want to file a complaint with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, but they only seem to act if there are large numbers of similar complaints.

Hiring a lawyer and suing would probably be pointless, as your little lawyer vs. Kawasaki Motors hired gun$ legal team.

Sorry to be so negative. Probably easiest to sell the bike and move on...

I appreciate your insight. And I don't take it as negativity, but as informative. When there is a complicated problem, one needs to gather intel to go in the correct direction.

I'm not very fast at typing. Any chance we can talk over the phone?