Socialism?

[dantama]

Play along, and don't go look up what it means until your second post :)

What is wrong with Socialism?

Ok, I'm playing the devils advocate here. But some in other posts have used the word like "Communist" was used prior to 20 years ago.

A lot of people knew that communist was bad, but didn't know what it really meant and what specifically was bad about it. Of course some did know, but a lot more knew to use it to brand something as bad without knowing what it was.

So if Obama is a socialist, what is the inherent "bad" about that?

But don't go look it up yet. Anser than to look it up :)

[ridemslow]

Have you ever lived in a socialist country? Try it, I am sure that you will love it there.

[dantama]

Originally Posted by ridemslow

Have you ever lived in a socialist country? Try it, I am sure that you will love it there.

There's one that won't play along :(

I guess the founding fathers didn't really want the government in so many aspects of their lives. Nothing is really wrong with socialism if you don't mind paying higher taxes for less liberty and increased security. Like it said in the Thomas Payne thread: He who would give up some liberty for increased saftey, deserves neither liberty nor safety. Socialists may think capitalism is unfair, but if you were to invent something and not be able to capatize on it I say that is unfair. I believe the libertarian party to be the only party focused on supporting our constitutional rights. Even the libertarian runnning for A.G. for Utah swears he's going after the out of control police officers abusing their power.

[glwilson]

Dan;

I spent around 20 minutes typing a response only to erase it.

I only want to say that I have worked extremely hard in my life to get and earn my income. I never received a government check; a scholarship; not even a block of free-cheese.

I get extremely irratated when someone (anyone, including Obama) says that I make too much money and that I need to take my money and give it to those that have been too lazy to work as hard as I have; or who have not taken the risks with their lives and money to get where I have in life.

I have plenty of examples of neighbors that have not worked as hard as I; and that do not make near as much as I -- but have bigger homes; more expensive vehicles; more "toys"; and etc than I.

Some of them are the very examples of the Americans that made extremely poor decisions with regard to getting into debt also.

Now; I am being told that I make too much money and need to be taxed to pay for their excesses; stupidity; ignorance; laziness; and so on.

I, personally, have had it with that crap and really don't think anyone can argue against my case.

If anyone wants a socialistic government; or one that is even remotely close to that; then you are in the wrong country. There are places that have that type of government. Go there people. I signed-up for a country that rewards hard work; not punishes it.

Dan; this is not a personal attack on you; but merely how fed-up I am with the situation.

[mrfuni]

+1 glwilson...That's what I'm talking about!

[dantama]

No offense taken gl, this is just me playing devils advocate.

I just find it interesting when people talk about obama and socialism as if it's the greatest evil ever, without realizing that so much of our government is already socialist, and the ones complaining, like it that way....they just don't know it.

When people like the first poster give a knee jerk unfriendly response, I wonder if when he flushes the toilet it goes to the socialist sewer, or the capitalist one :)

[dantama]

There are some things besides sewers that I like being socialist, I'll talk about them later on.

[formikec]

I deleted this post because I decided I just shouldn't "play along".

Mike

[glwilson]

Understood Dan. Toilets; highways; and such are good parts of a socialistic approach to a society.

Since I have an education in economics and apply it in my profession daily, I wholly understand socialism and capitalism, and that one cannot provide a description of either in a relatively short fashion -- thus your challenge will remain un-challenged. The concepts are far too complicated with multiple variations to debate.

I also understand that neither capitalism nor socialism would work for the long-term in and by itself; (although socialism might last longer than capitalism -- more on that later if needed).

Regarding many individual's concerns; or "rants" about socialism; I believe they are more concerned about the probability that we are about to enter into an era whereby one party will have almost an unabated control of the government. This is particularly a concern during a period of time where we are in uncharted-global economic stress (to say the least).

I, personally, believe that Americans need to be concerned anytime the government is about to be controlled in an unabated fashion by a single party -- no matter the party.

I am particularly concerned about Obama's (democratic party's) economic policy -- whereby he may make some of the same mistakes as Hoover and Roosevelt at an extremely critical period in the history of world economics. If his policy is fully implemented; I believe it will have lasting negative effects for many years. Effects I am almost positive will not be what most were looking for when voting for him. His policies do not match-up to his political rhetoric of "jobs" for the middle-class. History has taught us (at least when I studied economics) that taxation does not create jobs. In fact; I challenge anyone to show me a period of history where taxation provided meaningful; and lasting jobs - that were not subsidized or entirely government funded.

While I take great care in my profession to not be a fear-monger; I am obligated to state what my research and resources provide. Please be assured we are in an extremely difficult economic environment in the world -- far bigger of a problem than I believe most fathom -- far bigger. This problem will not be solved with a quick-fix; nor go away anytime soon. This problem took a while to build; thus it will take a while to unwind.

Since I do not feel this is the forum for such topics; I will only say that Americans need to be concerned about having a democratic-dominant goverment during this period of time. It is basically the wrong economic policy for a period such as this. (This is a return to the failed Keynesian policy)

For those that doubt me; please do yourself a favor and spend some time learning economics. I am a firm believer if more people understood economics we would not be in many of the situations we find ourselves in personally or as a country.

[formikec]

+2 what GL said

[mrfuni]

Well Said glwilson...

You planning on going to the National Rally? I'd like to further discussions like this with you, Dan, etc. over a few cold ones..

I have been in the investment business managing portfolios for institutions and wealthy individuals for 28 years, so I also know a little about economics. Your point is well taken and expressed nicely. Based on your points that I can only echo, I fear for my children if we do not have gridlock in our government, and the democrats get their way with what the party is proposing. Interesting times that i also believe are more dire than the average person can ever realize.

Joe

[glwilson]

I have had intentions of being there with my wife -- unless of course my taxes are too high by then for me to go. Ha!

[b2]

Hey Dan.. why don't you start a threat on something less provocative.. like race or religion !

Just kidding.. please DON'T

My only comment, as a temporary resident of this country and observer (I can't vote ) is that there is very little black and white in a discussion of socialism v capitalism in the Western world these days.. you find elements of both in most countries. As said, we have sewers, freeways here in the USA... Coming from a country with "socialised health care", I find it interesting that many Americans I speak to are so opposed to such a healthcare system, and see it as the beginning of a march down the dark path of socialism. I personally don't see things in such extremes or black and white.

I'm sure that America's status as a capitalist nation is 100% secure.. regardless of the system of healthcare that may be eventually adopted.. or not !

Good luck Dan.. nothin' wrong with a bit of spirited debate ;)

Brian

As a libertarian I oppose all forms of income taxes. Government should collect revenues through fees for services actually rendered. Basic services vital to a free and peaceful society can have their just expenses provided through minimal sales taxes. Government must live within its revenues. All taxes should be subject to sunset provisions. I don't believe that property owners should pay rent to the government on property they own or are in the process of buying. Municipalities can fund services they provide (e.g., garbage collection) through user fees. I support abolition of all property and use taxes, including those applied to automobiles and equipment used in business.