Adding 2cents to 1600 power topic

[voyager]

Hey all, I've been reading many a comment on the power of the 1600 compared to other models and cc's so I thought I would add my thoughts as well. I've been an engine mechanic for a Caterpillar dealer for 25 years now and currently teach my apprentices the ins and outs of engines on the dyno. Now my engines are 1000 to 5000 hp diesels, but the principles are all the same. Alot of my students get torque and hp mixed up, though they are related, they perform different tasks. When it comes to our Nomads, when you start out at a light , with two up , and a load of luggage, and you want to accelerate fast up to the speed limit, thats torque. When your cuising on the highway and want to pass without gearing down, thats hp. Where the engine is in its working curve depends on when torque or hp come into play ( or better put, when you feel it work ) When it comes to our 1600s the engine is limited by Kawi's design as to how much hp we can get out of it. Marginal increases can be achieved by exhaust change and air intake change, sensor tweeking and such ( 10-15% ) but you give up fuel ecomomy to do it. The 1600 is limited to it's intake manifold, cam design and compression ratio.( and to a certain respect, the gear ratio of the tranny). Since these hard parts can't be changed then the limits are pre set. 60 some odd hp is low for the size of the motor ( I agree with BD on that ) but with Kawi having 4 valves per cylinder, it does open the door to increase the compression ratio and cam timing in the future to achieve higher hp. But, as Doc stated, with every action there is a reaction. Higher hp, fuel increase, revs, etc causes more stress on any engine and higher wear and less life. So the question is , do you want your bike to last 150,000 miles, or do you want major speed and pulling power and put up with high fuel ecomomy and a bike you have to replace in 3 years. Now stop comparing HD to Kawis, because I don't know too many HD with 150,000 miles untouched.

Sorry about being so long winded,

voyager

[blowndodge]

Good points voyager. I was hoping to debate this a little but you threw in the "longevity" thing and that's the overiding factor. these bikes could easily have had 100 lb ft of torque at reduced mechanical life.

Ok, so I'll debate a little here :-) :

torque is the actual twisting force of the crankshaft and HP is at what speed that twisting force is being generated.

A very high torque engine can beat a somewhat high HP motor if it's set up so that crankshaft speed is negligible. ie; a major monster torque motor with a very high low gear that only have's to shift twice down the quarter mile can be very fast indeed.

the pro stock class is now in the hands of Harley YUCK! LOL. Torque if applied correctly can really haul A$$ is delivered correctly to the rear wheel through proper gear reduction.

P.S I love diesel motors! My truck has a highly modified Cummins (monster torque) and I haven't lost a quick run with a gas truck in a loooooong time.

[ianicky]

It's all clear as mud now lol ???

[rlfaubion]

Torque vs Horsepower has always been a fun debate in the diesel forums. I have a 1985 Bluebird bus @ 42,000 lbs gross it's pushed by a 330hp Turbo, 2 stroke Detroit Diesel. I seem to recall this is about 532 c.i.



The 12,500 watt generator is powered by a 4 cylinder Perkins, which is large than many passenger cars



I love the smell of diesel in the morning.

[flightdoc]

I appreciate the lesson here. I like my Nomad stock. It does haul a huge load gets 40+ mpg at highways speeds of 70+ mph and doesn't make a bunch of noise doing all that AND will probably last a very long time.

thanks for the explanations.

[blowndodge]

It will last at least 100k miles. I love the smell of diesel! I was a kid at about 6 or 7 and we were on vacation at a truck stop and this black monster truck was filling up and I just stared at that truck and the driver asked me if I like it. I told him it sounded incredible! I knew I would own one someday!!!! bug bit me early in life!!

[Todd]

It will last at least 100k miles. I love the smell of diesel! I was a kid at about 6 or 7 and we were on vacation at a truck stop and this black monster truck was filling up and I just stared at that truck and the driver asked me if I like it. I told him it sounded incredible! I knew I would own one someday!!!! bug bit me early in life!!

He wasn't asking you about his truck BD....come on...let those repressed memories out ;) ;) ;) ;)

[blowndodge]

he told me he was your father....... sorry :-(


+1

[Todd]

Papa WAS a rolling stone....oh, sh*t...wrong thread....sorry ..............................

[oldbiker]

OK, I go along with everything Voyager said and I know a Goldwing is a totally different animal, BUT my 99 GL1500 is pumping out nearly 100 HP, is super quiet and it's not unusual to hit 250K with no problems. It's still 1500 cc's and its running carbs not FI. Aerodynamically it's a kite, it's heavier than the Nomad and it gets as good if not better MPG. And it's got 6 cylinders not 2. Explain that to a dummy.

[mikesth]

Here's my .02, I can only judge by my last bike, a warmed over 01 Bandit 1200 s, yeah I know, totally different animal 4 straight vs a V twin, in any case, in both Torque and HP top end, the Nomad felt like a total pig when I bought it two months ago, and I certainly didn't expect a speed king. Truth be told, I was probably pushing too many limits on the Bandit for my age, but that was one of the reasons to move to a cruiser, I expected to slow down, enjoy the ride with my wife and have a dry place to toss stuff.

It took about a week to adjust to the 1600 performance, I realize I no longer can rely on my throttle to get me out of traffic situations as much, now I just approach riding differently.

Sorry about the rambling, but in short, I expected a bit more Torque AND top end, but I've adjusted and am not regretting my buying decision.

[dank]

OK, I go along with everything Voyager said and I know a Goldwing is a totally different animal, BUT my 99 GL1500 is pumping out nearly 100 HP, is super quiet and it's not unusual to hit 250K with no problems. It's still 1500 cc's and its running carbs not FI. Aerodynamically it's a kite, it's heavier than the Nomad and it gets as good if not better MPG. And it's got 6 cylinders not 2. Explain that to a dummy.

One "dummy" to another, here is my understanding of it:

You are mixing two different things: gas used while rolling down the road and having the ability to accelerate more quickly or attain a higher top speed. The 6 cylinder engine in the wing, or even more clearly separated from us, the 4's in the new Concours, ST1300, FJR, and other sport touring bikes have shorter piston strokes than our big V-Twins. This gives us a boost in low rpm torque and produces that kick in the pants we all love coming out of a stop light or rolling on the throttle from 25 mph in 3rd gear. However it also limits the top rpm our engines can go because of the required velocity of the pistons to cover the travel distance. The 4's and 6's often have shorter travel distances and can rev at higher rpms. All other things equal, they do not produce the same low end torque for unit size and rpm, but once reved a bit produce ample torque and more horsepower. Of course there are also variation of valves, air intake etc. for any given configuration, and some of them are on the aggressive side of their potential and the Nomad is not.

So at low rpm the V-twin can take them on start up, but if they are allowed to rev slightly higher they produce ample torque to get things moving. As higher speeds are approached, we hit rev limiters just as the sport touring 4's a big upswing in their HP curve at 5,000 + rpm, and so they motor right on out of sight. My son’s Vulcan 1500 could take my connie off the line, for about 10- 20 feet, unless I really reved it, say 3,500 rpm, before releasing the clutch. But once that 4- cylinder 997 cc engine got cooking (again, about 20 ft) he looked like he was standing still. Once you let them get up 3,500 - 6,000 rpm they have torque, and then they hit their HP upswing and that lets them continue to utilize the torque at higher speeds. (As BD said, HP determines the speed at which the twisting force is being generated.) They also suck down more gas at those higher RPM’s and speeds. My Connie would cruise at 48-50 mpg at 60 mph. If I started being aggressive and taking twisty roads at 90+, which of course I NEVER DID BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE ILLEGAL, then it dropped into the mid to high 30's. The Goldwing engine sits between the V-twins and the 4 cylinder bikes in terms of balancing torque generation at low rpm’s and uses slightly higher rpm’s to generate the kick out of the 6 cylinders, but also then stops the party at 6,000 rpm for the 1800 and I think it was 5,500 rpm for the 1500. (Our stroke is 95 mm, the Gl 1500 is 64mm, and the new Concours is 61mm) I’m guessing Honda limited RPM’s to increase engine life since the configuration had ample power for US highways at the lower rpm’s.

MPG while cruising is more a function of the amount of work the engine is doing than a function of ability to accelerate. How much weight, rolling resistance, and wind resistance are you pushing down the road. So the 1500 wing and the Nomad, weighing about the same, get comparable mileage. My Connie was slightly lighter and more aerodynamic, so slightly better mileage. Of course gearing also comes into play in determining how efficiently the motive force generated by the engine in being converted into forward motion. With two overdrives we look pretty good in this category.

Well, that’s my best shot. Not being an engineer I’m sure it provides ample errors for BD to correct.

[blowndodge]

That explanation is good enough for gov't work dank! The GW even back to the 1500 with its full fairing is a lot more aerodynamic that the flat shielded Nomad. I think that if the Nomad had been designed as a semi-sport touring bike with a real aero full fairing, Kawasaki would have made the valve timing, cams profile more agressive. Off idle torque would have to be compromised but it would have been in it's element at 80-90 mph. Even though my Nomad easily cruises as 90 (I never do it, it's illegal) it's so far out of its wind and performance design the mileage really suffers.

[dogdoc]

diesel fumes are a known carcinogen when inhaled but everybody will say what doesn't cause cancer, so ,,,,,,,,,,,

[Todd]

WOW