Question on the steering Head bearings

[denny 606]

About three years ago I put new All Balls bearings in the steering head on my 1500 , 05 model if it matters. I also put a new claw washer in to lock the nut in place as well. I have to retorque the steering bearings at least twice a summer. I can not keep them from backing off . The races are seated firmly and the seal and bearings are as the should be. Could some one here tell me exactly what is supposed to hold the claw washer in place to keep,the nut from backing off? The upper tree? Is it supposed to put enough pressure on that washer to lock it against the bearings inner race or leep it from turning or what? I'm getting ready to pull the top tree off and clean those threads as best I can and loctite the nut as well as using the washer. I'm stumped.

[Sabre-t]

Are you torquing the steering stem top nut to specs? It acts as a lock nut to the steering stem nut. It is torqued down almost 4X as much as the stem nut on a Voyager. I would imagine that it is similar ratio on a 1500.

[redjay]

Do you have the parts assembled in the correct order ?

http://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/k...e47931d7/frame

[DragonLady58]

Once its assembled, after the top nut is torqued, there shouldn't be any backing off, it should act like a jam nut, stacking everything up solid once you tighten your top capnut! Did you torque the bearing nut to spec for bearing preload?
Follow your directions. Nut on top of seal and bearing torqued to spec, then engagement washer, then your oring/triple tree/washer, capnut, torque to spec.
I'm with Redjay, if things are in the correct order, things shouldn't loosen up unless your steering stem has started to come loose from the lower tree....

[denny 606]

Originally Posted by DragonLady58

Once its assembled, after the top nut is torqued, there shouldn't be any backing off, it should act like a jam nut, stacking everything up solid once you tighten your top capnut! Did you torque the bearing nut to spec for bearing preload?
Follow your directions. Nut on top of seal and bearing torqued to spec, then engagement washer, then your oring/triple tree/washer, capnut, torque to spec.
I'm with Redjay, if things are in the correct order, things shouldn't loosen up unless your steering stem has started to come loose from the lower tree....

That's a scary thought, I'll check it , I'll check the fiche. I'll check the order against the fiche, it had tapered bearings in it when I change them so I may not be the first in there. To answer the question about the outer nut yes torqued to specs from gadgets page. Very tight I'd have to back and see. I ve got some stuff to check now any way , I'll get back with what I find. Thanks to you all!

[redjay]

My thoughts are the steering shaft has a shoulder in the bottom of the shaft and then it is press fitted into the lower triple tree casting from the bottom. The shoulder would then prevent it separating from the casting as it is constantly being drawn upwards into it.

When you tighten the nut on top of the top triple tree are you loosening the clamp bolts at the side of the top triple tree ? If the top triple tree cant move downwards then it cant clamp the assembly (engagement washer) underneath unless the triple tree bends downwards to trap everything.

Don't undo the clamps on the upper and lower triple tree at the same time or you will have a bad day.

[vulcanscott]

Same Thoughts as above either some thing out of place or stem is being pulled up out of the lower tree . Either one could result in the cap nut having clearance when torqued down and not locking the adjusting nut .

[denny 606]

Originally Posted by redjay

My thoughts are the steering shaft has a shoulder in the bottom of the shaft and then it is press fitted into the lower triple tree casting from the bottom. The shoulder would then prevent it separating from the casting as it is constantly being drawn upwards into it.

When you tighten the nut on top of the top triple tree are you loosening the clamp bolts at the side of the top triple tree ? If the top triple tree cant move downwards then it cant clamp the assembly (engagement washer) underneath unless the triple tree bends downwards to trap everything.

Don't undo the clamps on the upper and lower triple tree at the same time or you will have a bad day.

Yes lossened them up and also gave them a rap with a leather mallet on each side in case one was binding up and tried to tetorque the top nut, no extra movement., like I said I'm going to dig into it this week and find the problem armed with some extra info from you guys. This ain't rocket science, I've done a lot tougher jobs than this. I'm more and more suspecting some one beat me to the draw and something is assembled in the wrong order and I put it back just like I found it. When I take something like that apart I always lay my parts out in the order they came out so I can put it back the same way. My thinking is someone else wasn't so diligent . I hope that's it and the tube isn't pulling through. Thanks again

[DragonLady58]

Originally Posted by redjay

My thoughts are the steering shaft has a shoulder in the bottom of the shaft and then it is press fitted into the lower triple tree casting from the bottom. The shoulder would then prevent it separating from the casting as it is constantly being drawn upwards into it.

When you tighten the nut on top of the top triple tree are you loosening the clamp bolts at the side of the top triple tree ? If the top triple tree cant move downwards then it cant clamp the assembly (engagement washer) underneath unless the triple tree bends downwards to trap everything.

Don't undo the clamps on the upper and lower triple tree at the same time or you will have a bad day.

I'd been a dealership/service mechanic, I'd seen 2 steering stem failures, One was coming loose from fatigue, not being serviced correctly, years of abuse, etc. It was a gradual failure, over time, a stress crack started.
2nd one was a bike put back into service after the people that bought it retitled it a salvage bike....that was due to a very heavy frontend impact.
Its very unlikely that the stem has been compromised in any way, but its always best to check, freak accidents have happened before....
If your not the first one inside your steering bearings, my bet is that someone didn't put all the correct parts in the correct order....
Use your repair book as reference....

[redjay]

Are you 100% sure the races are seated properly ?

[DragonLady58]

Originally Posted by redjay

Are you 100% sure the races are seated properly ?

That is something definitely worth checking....I've run across this before, believe MAS has, too.
After I drive in the bearing races, I use a piece of hardened 3/4"-NF allthread, several Heavy Duty washers, and 2 coupling nuts, I pull the nuts down to about 80ft-lbs, and smack it both top and bottom with a large raw-hide hammer, just to be sure.
Then I retorque the nuts....I do this several times to completely bottom them out....
Before you begin this, when changing out your steering bearings, make sure your steering bore for the bearing races is smooth, straight, and there aren't any burrs that can cock your bearing races....
I once didn't bother to check this, my steering was erratic, after a hard front end impact from a pothole, it would get tight, then later on would go back to feeling kinda normal.
After 2 months of wonky steering, I pulled it all back apart again, found where a previous installer had gotten the bearing cocked and rolled a burr up just enough for the bearing to rock side to side a little. Have even seen a couple of dings from owners trying to remove the old races that kept the bearing race from seating correctly!
Its all in the details....
Check that you can't slide a .002 shim under the races, If you can, race isn't sitting correctly....

[denny 606]

I went as far as to pull the top tree off and check the top of the bearing set , everything appears to be in order up there. As I have a Fairing and a bunch of stuff bolted to the front of this bike, I retorqued the bearing top nut, and put the top tree on it again , I don't want to down it for days right now. I did however check with a feeler gauge and the tree is about .005 off of touching the washer. I put a shim out of a jeep pinion shaft on top of the locking washer that mic ed out at .008 and then put the tree back on it and torqued it down and then let it settle a bit and checked the torque again. It's still tight and there is no clearance on top now. The washer has been clamped down now by the top tree. I also pulled the plug on the bottom of the tree and checked to see if I could find evidence of the center pulling out and didn't see anything that would make me believe it had moved. I also used a paint marker on the underside of the top tree and the nut so I can check to see if it is backing off or moves.

Here is what I am thinking and let me know what you think. Oh yeah ,I'm sure the races are bottomed out. I've been burned on that once in my life . I always check that before proceeding. Like Dragon Lady said since I'm not the only one that's has been in there. I got to thinking about the fork tube stops that go up against the covers. It is highly possible that one or both of them may have been moved and not put back in the proper place and off just enough to have my fork tubes up higher than they should have been and cause some conflict with the top tree going down squarely against the locking ring and allowing it to remain loose enough to slip. Just throwing that out there. Bottom line is that I now have the locking ring captured and the bike handles so much better at low speeds especially. I'm going to keep a close eye on it . If it loosens again I'm tearing the whole thing down and going back with all new bearings ,races and seals along with a new nut as well. I'm hoping this will hold everything tight until winter anyway. Thanks everyone, BTW I'm am not a backyard mechanic either, I have spent my life working on material handling equipment and heavy mine machinery as well as held an overhead crane inspectors license. I'm not crowing about anything or think any of you are either . But I did work as the only Tech at a Kaw dealership as they were starting up to help some friends out and get their business established. I've owned and done my own wrenching and fabricating on bikes for more years than I'd like to admit publicly. . So feel free to throw suggestions my way I understand the langue you're speaking and I do appreciate all of you taking time to help. Like my grandma used to say " 2 heads are better than 1 even if 1 is a sheeps head" . Smart old lady ,LOL. She really did say that too.