Thoughts on pinging

[dank]

Since your focus is on reducing temperature, which makes complete sense, and that is a function of air and coolant movement around the engine, I am curious: BD, did you have the same trouble with pinging prior to changing to the larger lowers?

I don't run my lowers at all except in the winter on long rides. No difference IMO though.

[tomk]

Look below and Note:

What this tells you is that 30% antifreeze (ethylene glycol) will freeze at 2 degrees F (who the hell needs that?).

It also says:
"Solution concentrations much over 50% become proportionally less thermally efficient and less cost effective."

This means it does not transfer the heat out as efficiently and costs more to maintain. Yes, it does boil at a higher temperature but your motor will run hotter because of it.

So I think BD has a good theory to try out.

Tomk


Anti-Freeze in Hydronic Systems
The following discussion is based on information collected from chemical companies, equipment manufacturers, hydronic system design manuals and research performed by the Hydronics Institute, Inc. It represents a synthesis of the best information available at the time of publication. The intent of the author is to provide guidelines to help licensed contractors and engineers in designing, servicing and maintaining hydronic systems that use glycol based anti-freeze. Readers are encouraged to reproduce and distribute this information freely.

Ethylene Glycol or Propylene Glycol

Both ethylene and propylene glycol possess many characteristics that make them ideal for use in heat transfer systems where protection from freezing is required. Desirable properties include high boiling points, low freezing points, stability over a wide range of temperatures, and high specific heats and thermal conductivities. Furthermore, used with an appropriate inhibitor, glycols demonstrate a non-corrosivity that may substantially prolong system life.

Ethylene glycol based solutions work well in most anti-freeze applications because of their excellent heat transfer efficiency. The low viscosity of ethylene glycol allows systems to operate at lower minimum temperatures and is more energy efficient due to its reduced pumping requirements. The primary drawback to ethylene glycol is that it is listed as a "toxic chemical" under SARA, Title III, Section 313, due to its acute oral toxicity.

Inhibited propylene glycol should be used for freeze protection where direct contact with foodstuffs or incidental contact with drinking water may occur. Although propylene glycol is generally recognized as safe (GRAS) by the FDA, it is not intended for human consumption.

Freeze Protection

The glycol mixture design concentration must be determined with due regard to the minimum temperature that the system is expected to encounter. It behooves the designer to thoroughly evaluate the application environment in order to both guarantee adequate freeze protection, and to avoid using overly concentrated solutions, which add expense and reduce system efficiency.

Generally, the design concentration should be targeted for the range of 20 to 50% glycol by volume. Normally, with proper expansion volume available, a concentration of 15 to 20% will provide bursting protection. Solution concentrations much over 50% become proportionally less thermally efficient and less cost effective. Table 1 shows the expected freezing point as a function of concentration.

Table 1. Freezing Point Concentration by volume Ethylene Glycol Propylene Glycol
55% -50F -40F
50% -37F -28F
40% -14F -13F
30% +2F +4F
20% +15F +17F

[redeye]

I was wondering about buying 91 octane gas at the pump after an auto had just filled up on regular 87 octane. If the pump has just one hose for all three grades of gas, how much regular gas is left in the 12-15 feet of hose, the nozzle, and the plumbing inside the pump back to the switching valve?

This has to be at least 1-2 gallons of regular that has to be flushed from the system, into your tank, before you start to receive the premium gas you're paying for. And since we bikers buy only 2-4 gallons at a time, up to 50% of your purchase is regular 87 octane at the premium price, & diluting our octane rating by 2 or more points.

Could this be a contributing factor, among others, why our bikes ping so easily?

From now on, I'm buying gasoline from stations that have one hose for each grade of gas. Just my $00.02 -Rich

[fish]

Or, if you riding with a buddy be a nice guy and let him fill-up first

[tomk]

Really good point on the 87 / 91 mixture

From what I've been told, there is nothing like 1~2 gallons left in the hose etc. once you shut it off. More like between a pint and a quart. Most of that fat hose is vapor recovery, and the I.D. of the delivery hose is rather small.

Us old geezers from before the days of vapor recovery will recall how fast that fat hose could fill the 22 gallon tank of your Galaxie or Belaire, vs. how slow the gas pumps out nowdays.

But I would definately like to see some figures in this and perhaps a field test.

We have under-cover inspectors here who go around from time to time taking samples from various gas stations to see that the gallon you buy is really a gallon, and to test the octane of various gas purchased.

But they do NOT just buy a gallon from each pump they visit. They fill a concealed 5 gallon tank, so any dilution of the octane will be minimal.

Normally, I buy gas when I'm on empty, and it takes about 4.25 gallons to fill, so I feel the dilution ratio is probably 1 quart to 4 gallons or about 1 part in 17. Octane numbers don't really add up linearly, so it's hard to determine the result mathmatically, but if 1 part was 0% and 16 parts were 100%, the the result would be 16/17 or a 94% solution. In fact there is some octane in 87 octane, yet just a bit more in 91 octane, so the relative solution strength at a 16/17 ratio will be very close to 91 octane IMO.

Now, if you just buy one gallon of gas, the results will be much, much worse, but if you've still got 3 gallons of (nearly) 91 octane in the tank when you buy that gallon, the dilution will still be minimal once it all mixes.

IMO this all has virtually nothing to do with why Nomads ping. It has everything to do with the fact that the FI is set lean from the factory, modern gas has alcohols and other crap in it which do not produce the power of gasoline, and 95 octane would be more appropriate for these engines anyway.

[blowndodge]

Yes redeye. You get about half a gallon of reg mixed with your premium. I was told that it shouldn't happen because the gas is siphoned back down to the proper holding tank. I'm a little skeptical about that. It's hard to find pumps anymore that are straight premium only grade.

[voyager]

Forgive me if I re comment on the same response because I didn't read every page of this thread. If you will all bear with me and take my humble knowledge for what its worth; An engines cooling system is designed from the ground up, not always done well mind you, but none the less, its done on the drawing board first. As far as diluting the antifreeze mix, you most certainly can, and if you do, you would rather be on the diluted side as apposed to the heavy strength side. But, aside from freezing and boiling properties, antifreeze has lubrication properties, anti-cavitation properties and non corrosive additives for todays metals. So, diluting the mix outside the manufactures recomendations will put you outside the window of internal engine protection. I've seen more engines ruined by running diluted or straight water than you can imagine. If you remove the thermostat you can run into the situation of over cooling your engine. The fluid outside the engine block is there to assist in cooling when the internal temperature of the engine ( thermostat ) is reached and flow begins to the rad and back to the water pump. Your theory of removing the thermostat to improve flow is flawed mainly because flow in any hydraulic system is determined by resistance to flow. There are so many nooks and cranies in the system that removing this one obstacle will have little to no effect. You and others running in hotter ambient climates would do better to get a fan switch that comes on at a lower temperature ( if there is one ) . If you were able to get a larger rad and increase coolant capacity, then when you rode in cooler weather, your engine will run too cold and carbon up too much, this is because the water pump is a fixed flow rate and coolant would travel too slow through a larger rad and over cool for the design.

voyager ( Caterpillar mechanic for 25 years )

[blowndodge]

your forgiven. Most if not all the issues you've addressed have been spelled out int eh other pages. "Carbon up" in a fuel injected ECM motor is not possible due to the sensors in the system. We are attempting to "fool" them. Previously discussed on the other pages. However, thanks for any and all opinions...

Using straight water or a very weak solution in a Nomad would be a bad thing indeed. That anti-freeze lubricates the water pump & seals, and if those go out you have to tear the entire engine apart to replace the inner pump seal. You'll know this seal is leaking if your coolant level starts dropping and your oil level starts rising. A very expensive mistake this would be.

However, I think you could very safely run a 25% mix of anti-freeze and the pump would be fine, as long as you change the coolant more frequently. The problem is that the lubricants in the coolant wear out, and less coolant means they drop below the safe level sooner.

I'd suggest if you go from 50/50 to 25/75 you should change the coolant every year or 7500 miles (whichever comes first) instead of every two years (and that's whether you ride the bike or not.)

That might be a little too frequent, but better to be safe. If you don't believe me, call the dealer about replacing the inner pump seal. I'll bet it costs $1500 or more!

[blowndodge]

70/30 is what I'm going to run this summer. What should be enough. I plan on changing it at the start of every summer anyway...

[blowndodge]

Well, I flushed the radiator today and bought some No Toxic Prestone Propylene Glycol (SP) instead the the toxic Ethylene Glycol solution. Mixed it at 30% coolant to 70% ultra pure distilled water and filled the system back up and bleed it and now with the weather this weekend expected in the mid 90's I can start seeing if there might be a little reduction in temps. I also left the thermostat in.

Still plan on the 330 ohm resistor in the water sensor eventually, but for now, one mod at a time to see if I'm headed in the right direction....

89⁰F here today, and a beautiful day to ride. I think Mac is still lookin' out at a foot or two of New Hampster mush on the ground, and no fit situation to ride in.

I think I'll go wash a month's commuter grunge off my bike & give it some Simonize just for old time's sake. Hell, it might actually stay shiny for 4 or 5 days this time of year, as the pollen's mostly down and the dust ain't quite up. I guess they don't have much dust in New Hampster... :)

[cactusjack]

Originally Posted by Blowndodge "Darksider"

Well, I flushed the radiator today and bought some No Toxic Prestone Propylene Glycol (SP) instead the the toxic Ethylene Glycol solution. Mixed it at 30% coolant to 70% ultra pure distilled water and filled the system back up and bleed it and now with the weather this weekend expected in the mid 90's I can start seeing if there might be a little reduction in temps. I also left the thermostat in.

Still plan on the 330 ohm resistor in the water sensor eventually, but for now, one mod at a time to see if I'm headed in the right direction....

Did you buy the non-toxic variety so you have something to drink when you get thirsty?