Go Back   Vulcan Bagger Forums > Technical :: Maintenance :: Performance > 1500 & 1600 Nomad

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-02-2018, 04:19 PM   #1
yoda   yoda is offline
Member
 
yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Lititz, PA
Posts: 432
Air horn issue

So for 10 years or so I have had a Bad Boy air horn on my 07 1600. Worked fine until last week when out of the blue it quit. I could hear the relay clicking so I checked for voltage to the horn. Nothing, so I went to the relay to check voltage coming out of the terminal. Nothing. Power coming to the relay was good, so I replaced the relay. Now power comes out of the relay, all the way to the connector for the positive terminal on the horn. Still doesn't work. I checked the ground connection, and cleaned that up (wire from the - horn terminal to the mounting bolt for the horn to the frame), and since I had the old horn off and it rattled a bit when I shook it, I got a new one. Mounted it up, plugged everything in, and it still doesn't work. I checked the voltage with a meter hooked to the power connector for the horn terminal, and the ground terminal. Everything is good. Nothing on the power side on the meter, until I hit the horn button with the key switch on, then it goes to 12v and drops when the button is released. The horn works with direct connections to the battery, so I have ruled out a defective horn.
So to summarize, what am I missing, if I have voltage coming to the positive terminal on the horn, and a good ground to the negative? I assume the switch is working due to only sending power to the horn when button is depressed. All the wiring continuity checks out, the power is there, the ground is there, but it doesn't even give a wimper. (Although I am now deaf in my left ear after testing directly to the battery...)
__________________
I used to be indecisive, but now I am not so sure...

Yoda
VBA #01311
SCRC Chapter 289
07 Nomad



Login or Register to Remove Ads
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2018, 05:46 PM   #2
recumbentbob   recumbentbob is offline
Sr. Member
 
recumbentbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Newburgh IN
Posts: 3,404
I would say clean the contacts on the horn button.
__________________
VBA #01084

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
"
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2018, 08:10 PM   #3
yoda   yoda is offline
Member
 
yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Lititz, PA
Posts: 432
Quote:
Originally Posted by recumbentbob View Post
I would say clean the contacts on the horn button.
I guess I will try that next. I just would like to understand how that could be the issue, if there is good power and ground to the connections on the horn itself. To me that indicates the horn switch is working, but I haven't done that yet so there is obviously no harm in trying.
__________________
I used to be indecisive, but now I am not so sure...

Yoda
VBA #01311
SCRC Chapter 289
07 Nomad
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2018, 09:16 PM   #4
yoda   yoda is offline
Member
 
yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Lititz, PA
Posts: 432
Ok, cleaned the switch contacts. They appeared OK but I sanded them down anyway. Reassembled everything and tried again. Still nothing. Relay clicks, good voltage from the positive terminal to the horn, and I even ran a direct wire from the negative terminal on the battery rather than a ground to the frame. Still no change. I am not pulling my hair out at this point, cause I had none to start with, but it is pretty frustrating.
__________________
I used to be indecisive, but now I am not so sure...

Yoda
VBA #01311
SCRC Chapter 289
07 Nomad
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2018, 11:40 PM   #5
tomm   tomm is offline
 
tomm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Lee, New Hampshire
Posts: 568
The horn draws a lot of current, so even a very small resistance anywhere in the circuit will cause the horn not to work. If it works when directly connected to the battery, try it with a positive lead to the battery and the frame ground, and then a negative lead to the battery and power through the relay. If the first one works but the second one doesn’t, your problem is on the power side. If the second one works but the first one doesn’t, your problem is on the ground side.

Once you know what side of the circuit has the problem, with the horn button pressed, measure voltage at the battery terminals, at the horn terminals, and at all junctions in between. Everything on the power side should be the voltage at the positive battery terminal. Everything on the ground side should be zero. If you see two different voltages between any two points on the positive side or any two points on the negative side, your resistance is between those two points. The horn button must be pressed so that current is flowing in the circuit for this test to work. Once you eliminate the resistance, your horn should work again.

Bottom line, measuring voltage without current flow tells you you have a connection. It does not tell you you have a good connection.

Note that usually the horn is wired with the switch/relay between the negative terminal and ground, and the positive terminal always connected to 12 volts. Also, make certain you don’t have the positive and negative backwards.
__________________


Tom Maziarz (tomm)
VBA #00766
2008 Kawasaki Nomad (Black)
1978 Suzuki GS750EC (My son is riding it now.)

2017: National Rally - Lake George, NY
2016: NE US / E Canada Rally - Mont Tremblant, QC
2015: National Rally - Eureka Springs, AR
2014: NE US / E Canada Rally - Lincoln, NH
2012: NE US / E Canada Rally - Wellsboro, PA



Login or Register to Remove Ads
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 04:14 AM   #6
DragonLady58   DragonLady58 is offline
Sr. Member
 
DragonLady58's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Somewhere South of Alaska....
Posts: 2,351
What he said! Be sure you have the horn grounded good, connections gotta be good and tight.....plus you gotta good strong battery voltage thru your relay. 90% of the problems are loose connections or bad grounds....
__________________

---------------------
Don't start no schit,
there won't be no schit....
*My Sarcasm is directly proportional
to the amount of Stupidity involved*
---------------------
VBA#03239
VROC#37400

VRA
---------------------
2014 Vaquero
2001 Nomad FI
2003 Street Glide (sold)
1500 Meanie, fresh rebuild (sold)
90s BUBF Bobber (sold)
2001 UltraCycle FatPounder (Sold)
1975 HD ElectraGlide (Sold)
1982 Kawasaki Z1 Chopper (Sold)
Suck It Up & Ride!
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 09:50 AM   #7
yoda   yoda is offline
Member
 
yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Lititz, PA
Posts: 432
Makes sense Tomm. I have checked for current and continuity, but not for resistance that would cause a voltage drop. Odd to me that it measures 11.9 volts at the horn connection and still doesn't work though. I will put that on my list of things to do today!
__________________
I used to be indecisive, but now I am not so sure...

Yoda
VBA #01311
SCRC Chapter 289
07 Nomad
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 11:27 AM   #8
yoda   yoda is offline
Member
 
yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Lititz, PA
Posts: 432
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomm View Post
The horn draws a lot of current, so even a very small resistance anywhere in the circuit will cause the horn not to work. If it works when directly connected to the battery, try it with a positive lead to the battery and the frame ground, and then a negative lead to the battery and power through the relay. If the first one works but the second one doesn’t, your problem is on the power side. If the second one works but the first one doesn’t, your problem is on the ground side. I rechecked both sides. The ground checks out fine. The + side was down a bit (from 12.6 to 11.8 from the relay output 87) so I tightened the battery bolt and it went to 12.3 at the power connection to the relay, and also at the relay post 87, and it stayed that way to the horn connection.

Once you know what side of the circuit has the problem, with the horn button pressed, measure voltage at the battery terminals, at the horn terminals, and at all junctions in between. Everything on the power side should be the voltage at the positive battery terminal. Everything on the ground side should be zero. If you see two different voltages between any two points on the positive side or any two points on the negative side, your resistance is between those two points. The horn button must be pressed so that current is flowing in the circuit for this test to work. Once you eliminate the resistance, your horn should work again. As tested, the voltage reads 12.3 at the horn positive terminal. Shouldn't that be enough voltage? In the past, if battery voltage was low but still good enough to start the bike, the horn would work although a bit weak. I am tied into the power wire for the FI2000 to avoid having too many ring terminals on the battery, so I am assuming some parasitic loss from that connection.

Bottom line, measuring voltage without current flow tells you you have a connection. It does not tell you you have a good connection.

Note that usually the horn is wired with the switch/relay between the negative terminal and ground, and the positive terminal always connected to 12 volts. Also, make certain you don’t have the positive and negative backwards.
I tried switching the wiring to see if the horn may have been wired backwards from the factory. Same result.
The horn is wired this way, as per the horn instructions for a motorcycle 2 wire systems. It has been this way since I installed the first replacement horn years ago. Am I incorrect to think that if the power lead to the horn is at 0 until the keyed horn switch is pressed, and then it goes to 12.3V, and the ground is good, that there really should not be more needed? http://wolo-mfg.com/media/wysiwyg/pd...19_english.pdf
__________________
I used to be indecisive, but now I am not so sure...

Yoda
VBA #01311
SCRC Chapter 289
07 Nomad
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 01:52 PM   #9
tomm   tomm is offline
 
tomm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Lee, New Hampshire
Posts: 568
I'm going by the fact that the horn works when you connect it directly to the battery. So if it doesn't work when on the bike, it is either not corrected right or you have a connection issue.

The drop from 12.6 to 11.8 was significant, so good that you got that fixed. But I'm still thinking there is a connection problem somewhere. Don't know if 12.3 is enough to activate the horn, but that does seem low. Battery at rest should be about 12.8 volts. At idle with minimal stuff turned on, about 13.8 to 14.5. But it really isn't the voltage that matters as much as it is current flow without a significant drop in voltage. Either way, The 12.3 at the battery is low and would indicate that charging is needed.

The way to look at this is that the current flow through the horn circuit is going to be constant, and the voltage drop from the positive terminal of the battery to the negative terminal of the battery is going to be the battery voltage. That voltage drop needs to be totally across the horn terminals. Assume the horn draws 24 amps at 12 volts to keep the math simple. That means the resistance of the horn is 1/2 ohm (12 volts = 24 amps x 1/2 ohm). if you have a bad connection that is 1/10 ohm, the total resistance is now 6/10 ohm and the current flow is now 12 volts divided by 6/10 ohm = 20 amps. Twenty amps times 1/10 ohm = 2 volts drop across the bad connection and only 10 volts across the horn instead of 12. Watts = voltage x current, so you have dropped the power to the horn from 12 volts x 24 amps = 288 watts to 10 volts x 20 amps = 200 watts. A power drop of 88 watts . . . over 30%. And that is with a bad connection that is only 1/10 of an ohm . . . not much at all. But enough to keep your horn from working. (Sorry if you are already familiar with this stuff. Not exactly how it works, but just trying to explain the concept if you aren't.)

Had a similar problem once, and it turned out to be the fuse. It hadn't blown, but the element had come loose and was just barely making contact. Enough so that when I measured voltage, everything looked good, but once current flowed through it for a minute or so, it heated up and broke the connection. Drove me nuts finding that. So check everything . . . from battery post to battery post.
__________________


Tom Maziarz (tomm)
VBA #00766
2008 Kawasaki Nomad (Black)
1978 Suzuki GS750EC (My son is riding it now.)

2017: National Rally - Lake George, NY
2016: NE US / E Canada Rally - Mont Tremblant, QC
2015: National Rally - Eureka Springs, AR
2014: NE US / E Canada Rally - Lincoln, NH
2012: NE US / E Canada Rally - Wellsboro, PA
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 04:17 PM   #10
desertdog   desertdog is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Goodyear AZ
Posts: 331
Could possibly be a faulty relay too, even if its new. Don't ask me how I know this. After much frustration and hair pulling last resort I tried a different one, problem solved.
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 07:43 PM   #11
yoda   yoda is offline
Member
 
yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Lititz, PA
Posts: 432
Tomm, I am really an electrical novice. I appreciate your breaking down the concept. I did check the fuses, but really just a continuity test, so in the scenario you described, the same thing could occur. Guess I could start next by replacing fuses and then continuing to test. Here is also something I scratch my head over, and maybe it has something to do with it. I have a test light that I used, in addition to the multi meter. The odd thing is that the light does not come on with the tester at all the connections, even though the meter reads over 12v using the same connections. I doubt the resistance in the test light is as high as the horn, (although the bulb did wiggle out of the socket somehow, so maybe it does) so do I have a faulty tester(one or the other) or maybe there is something wrong with my testing technique? I haven't figured that out yet...
I am about ready to simply replace all the wiring with new, basically starting over from scratch. But that won't tell me what the issue is, just casting a wider net in hopes of catching something.
__________________
I used to be indecisive, but now I am not so sure...

Yoda
VBA #01311
SCRC Chapter 289
07 Nomad
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 07:45 PM   #12
yoda   yoda is offline
Member
 
yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Lititz, PA
Posts: 432
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdog View Post
Could possibly be a faulty relay too, even if its new. Don't ask me how I know this. After much frustration and hair pulling last resort I tried a different one, problem solved.
My first thought was that as well. However 3 relays having the same fault seems unlikely.
__________________
I used to be indecisive, but now I am not so sure...

Yoda
VBA #01311
SCRC Chapter 289
07 Nomad
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2018, 09:24 PM   #13
tomm   tomm is offline
 
tomm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Lee, New Hampshire
Posts: 568
Actually, this is good news and it makes perfect sense. If you are reading 12 volts at some point but the test light is not lighting, that means when you connect the test light, current starts to flow, but some of the power is being robbed by a resistance upstream, not leaving enough for the light. Your problem is upstream from the point where that is occurring.

If you want to understand all this a little bit better, I wrote a tutorial some time back on motorcycles and electrical problems. It is at:

http://www.vulcanbagger.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=27886

Especially note the part about Ohm's Law . . . voltage = current times resistance, or volts = amps times ohms.

Check everything upstream from where your test light is not working. With the test light connected (even through it isn't lit), measure voltage from the last point upstream that it lit to where it first doesn't light. Somewhere in there you will find two different voltages. If you have 11.8 volts at one end of a wire and 11.7 volts at the other end, that is a problem. You are dropping a tenth of a volt across something that should essentially be zero resistance. Could be that the wire is corroded inside. Don't assume something can't be the problem. If there is a voltage drop across it when current is flowing through it, it is a problem. Only the load (light, horn, etc) should show a voltage drop. Switches, wires, connections, relays, fuses . . . anything else in the circuit should not. And the higher the current flow, the bigger the problem.



Quote:
Originally Posted by yoda View Post
Tomm, I am really an electrical novice. I appreciate your breaking down the concept. I did check the fuses, but really just a continuity test, so in the scenario you described, the same thing could occur. Guess I could start next by replacing fuses and then continuing to test. Here is also something I scratch my head over, and maybe it has something to do with it. I have a test light that I used, in addition to the multi meter. The odd thing is that the light does not come on with the tester at all the connections, even though the meter reads over 12v using the same connections. I doubt the resistance in the test light is as high as the horn, (although the bulb did wiggle out of the socket somehow, so maybe it does) so do I have a faulty tester(one or the other) or maybe there is something wrong with my testing technique? I haven't figured that out yet...
I am about ready to simply replace all the wiring with new, basically starting over from scratch. But that won't tell me what the issue is, just casting a wider net in hopes of catching something.
__________________


Tom Maziarz (tomm)
VBA #00766
2008 Kawasaki Nomad (Black)
1978 Suzuki GS750EC (My son is riding it now.)

2017: National Rally - Lake George, NY
2016: NE US / E Canada Rally - Mont Tremblant, QC
2015: National Rally - Eureka Springs, AR
2014: NE US / E Canada Rally - Lincoln, NH
2012: NE US / E Canada Rally - Wellsboro, PA
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 06:52 AM   #14
tomm   tomm is offline
 
tomm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Lee, New Hampshire
Posts: 568
Just noticed that your voltage drops from 12.6 at the battery to 12.3 at the relay. That 0.3 drop is a problem. It should be zero. Suggest you move the connection for the horn directly to the battery with a separate fuse.

If necessary, get an auxiliary fuse box for your other accessories.
__________________


Tom Maziarz (tomm)
VBA #00766
2008 Kawasaki Nomad (Black)
1978 Suzuki GS750EC (My son is riding it now.)

2017: National Rally - Lake George, NY
2016: NE US / E Canada Rally - Mont Tremblant, QC
2015: National Rally - Eureka Springs, AR
2014: NE US / E Canada Rally - Lincoln, NH
2012: NE US / E Canada Rally - Wellsboro, PA
 
Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2018, 09:55 PM   #15
yoda   yoda is offline
Member
 
yoda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Lititz, PA
Posts: 432
Ok, it is working now. I appreciate the input from all of you. Long story short, I replaced the connectors on all the wiring, ran a new wire from the battery to the relay, and made sure I tested each section of wiring that I repaired, working from the battery to the relay, the switch, and to the horn. I jumped the wiring from the relay to a spare 30 watt spotlight I had lying around last evening. My wife had just gone to bed, so I figured the spotlight was a bit quieter than the horn if things were good...There was no drop in voltage from the battery to the relay, so I figured I was on the right track to correcting the problem. The spotlight worked, so I planned to finish it up this evening. Well, after dinner I went out to the garage, connected the horn, and pressed the horn switch. Coincidentally, my wife just opened the garage door to see how I was making out. She jumped, and the dog ran back into the kitchen! Success! So then I routed all the wires back into place, put together all the crap I took apart, and cleaned up the work area. Just for grins, I blasted it one more time. Still kinda have a ringing in my ear, but I can deal with that!
__________________
I used to be indecisive, but now I am not so sure...

Yoda
VBA #01311
SCRC Chapter 289
07 Nomad
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.