A license to drive.

[billz410]

Having been a long-distance truck driver for nearly 15 years, with 1 1/2 million accident free miles to my credit, and growing up around various dirtbikes, ATV's, and a few smaller streetbikes, I have told myself I'm a pretty good driver/rider. Opinions will vary, I know!

Prior to purchasing my Nomad, I had let my motorcycle endorsement lapse, and it had been a ten years since I'd done any riding. I had the oppurtunity to borrow a friend's bike to take to the DMV, but thought better of it, and took a Motorycle Training course instead for a couple hundred bucks or so. My reasoning was, even though I have ridden, know how to ride, etc., a little refresher course sure wouldn't hurt anything. And, I don't like borrowing a friend's bike.

Now I realize we all gotta start somewhere, but while observing the various people on the course, it became very obvious very quickly that some of these people are going to pass the course and yet in no way be ready to ride on the highway, much less metro Phoenix.

I think it's WAY to easy to get a license to operate various motor vehicles in this country. The amount of training/experience required to meet the state minimums is pretty ridiculous, in my opinion.

Any thoughts on that, or am I just being a self-righteous stick-in-the-mud? What changes would you make?

[MarkG]

That has always been one of those no win situations. They pick the minimums for the respective vehicles and probably hope that fear will take care of the worst ones. There has always been the fine line between discrimination and litigation. Like everything else, DMV has limited resources. Process them through, get the money, and hope with experience they learn. I know people driving school buses that have had so many car accidents they can't even get insurance. How most taxi drivers ever got a license is beyond me.

That is probably one of the reasons there are so many bikes that are several years old with only a couple of thousand miles on them. The riders thought it was going to be so easy, then discovered the real world and got spooked.

We can only hope, after the initial licensing, that these people start to take it seriously and get more training.

[billz410]

An interesting point, Mark. I also drove school bus for awhile. Don't ask me what made me decide I wanted to see what that was all about! School bus drivers have a tremendous amount of responsibility and don't earn a whole lot of money. Not sure whether that's good or bad. I wasn't aware some of them have poor driving records. Interesting!

[cactusjack]

Like you, Bill - I had ridden before, but it had been 25 years since I owned a bike, and 15 years since I'd ridden one (my buddy's Sportster). I figured the MSF course was a better path to go down than just going to the DMV and rolling the dice.

When I bought my re-entry bike, an '05 Suzuki C50T, I had them deliver it to my house. I didn't want to ride a strange bike from Mesa to S Chandler on a Saturday afternoon. Six months later when I bought the Nomad, I had no second thoughts about riding it home, at night, even though that was my first ride on a Nomad. 10 minutes from the dealership, it felt to me like I'd always been riding it.

Even so, after I got my endorsement, I didn't just go hop on I-10 and cruise through the Broadway Curve. I was working near Sky Harbor at the time and my commute to work was 30 miles, all but 10 of them were on I-10 and the 143. I started out going on the loop 202 early on weekend mornings when traffic is light. I worked up to the freeway commute. I'll ride anywhere, anytime now, but I think approaching things sensibly and not "jumping from the frying pan into the fire" made a huge difference.

[dantama]

Here's an idea that will never happen, but I just thought up.

Have the licensee be hooked up to a mic and radio and the examiner riding behind on another bike. Have the licensee announce what he/she's doing and what they are looking at and responding to as they ride.

Have some general categories and if they have a miss in too many categories they fail. I wonder how many guys that would pull off the road?

It would be nice if riding was a craft, not a statement.

[Cajunrider]

When I left Cycle World of Houma with my new Nomad, I hadn't ridden for over 30 years. I rode that Nomad home in heavy traffic that afternoon. You literally couldn't have slid a finishing nail up my butt. I look back at all of this 1 year later and wonder if I've been lucky or if the Lord is protecting me for something he wants me to do. I haven't taken the MSF course because my work schedule always conflicts with the weekends the course is offered. I'm up to 8,600 miles now and have become very comfortable riding. Not comfortable enough to let my guard down. I'm still afraid when approaching an intersection or when an oncoming vehicle is waiting to turn left across my path. I don't think I'll ever get over it either. Just yesterday on my way to DMV to get my trailer registration, I was at a very busy 4 way stop intersection and this guy on a mid sized Honda ran through the intersection without even thinking of stopping. Turns out he ended up at DMV also. I'd just about bet he was there for his endorsement. I'll admit, when I received my endorsement a week after purchasing my bike, there is no way in hell I should have passed the riding test. The tester was lazy and just had me make two circles around the parking lot. No figure 8's or anything else. Just circles with very few cars parked in the lot. I could have very well been one of the statistics because of someone not doing their job. There are many fatal crashes every day. Some are inattentive cagers and many are riders making dumb mistakes as the one Bear brought out in another thread. We all need to be very alert just to survive.

[pagemastr]

Billz, no stick in the mud but unfortunately Darwin has a little to say about the skills of some of the motorcyclists licensed or not.

Your post reminded me of what my first ex and her husband of many years now told me when i asked if either had their licenses after they both got bikes. He had been bragging for years about having had a bike while he was out of state that nobody had ever been able to verify but lots of stories nonetheless. Both of them said they had no license and when I asked why they both said they had doubts of their abilities to pass the test! He did end up running into her crashing them both not too long before they sold them.

One note on training. I was looking at courses offered in Ohio for an advanced riders course and nothing available in a four county area around Columbus for beginners or advanced until late August. Classes offered weekly at ODOT and other counties ALL full until then. Totally surprised to see so many people taking the classes.

[kenb]

Originally Posted by billz410

Having been a long-distance truck driver for nearly 15 years, with 1 1/2 accident free miles to my credit, and growing up around various dirtbikes, ATV's, and a few smaller streetbikes, I have told myself I'm a pretty good driver/rider. Opinions will vary, I know!

Prior to purchasing my Nomad, I had let my motorcycle endorsement lapse, and it had been a ten years since I'd done any riding. I had the oppurtunity to borrow a friend's bike to take to the DMV, but thought better of it, and took a Motorycle Training course instead for a couple hundred bucks or so. My reasoning was, even though I have ridden, know how to ride, etc., a little refresher course sure wouldn't hurt anything. And, I don't like borrowing a friend's bike.

Now I realize we all gotta start somewhere, but while observing the various people on the course, it became very obvious very quickly that some of these people are going to pass the course and yet in no way be ready to ride on the highway, much less metro Phoenix.

I think it's WAY to easy to get a license to operate various motor vehicles in this country. The amount of training/experience required to meet the state minimums is pretty ridiculous, in my opinion.

Any thoughts on that, or am I just being a self-righteous stick-in-the-mud? What changes would you make?

1 1/2 accident free miles? ??? After 15 years did you finally deliver your first load? Just Kidding. I know it must be a typo or I just don't get it! I read that over and over and it still didn't make sense. I am guessing 1 1/2 million?

I tow a triple axle travel trailer/toy hauler which here in CA. a class A license is required. Not enforced too much that I am aware of. Anyway, I went to the DMV and got the ap and all the info. Did some reading on the testing required. It really looks, on paper, that it could be a beotch to pass! Then I see truck drivers at truck stops, and using the "judging a book by it's cover" to the fullest, I determined that anyone can get a Class A! I would also figure that some of those truckers can drive a truck like they were born to. Some may always have issues backing between trucks at the stop. Some may have little common sense. But, they passed the requirements for the license.

Same goes for Doctors, Lawyers, teachers, pilots, and just about anything that requires some sort of license. Some graduated at the top, some at the bottom of the class. Some did just enough to pass and have the same endorsement as those who put their all into learning all they could. Some found a school that was more lenient on grading while some went to a school with the strictest grading. I would bet there are students who think the same way you do, billz, but about someone about to become a medical doctor!

It sucks that we have to share the streets with those who do not take driving seriously. The license means nothing left to learn. Get in/on and go! The American way!

[billz410]

KenBob- I modified that post... wow! Yes, I meant to say 1 1/2 million miles.

When I took the motorycle test in Texas (Dallas) the way they did it was you brought your bike to the DMV, along with a friend in an automobile. Then, a State Trooper, after checking both the car and bike for proper registration, etc. etc., got in the passenger seat and rode with your friend in the car.

The trooper would instruct the car driver 'one honk for left turn, two honks for right turn', as a means of telling the motorcyclist which way he wanted he/she to go. They would follow behind you, driving for several city blocks. In this way, the trooper could observe how you actually handled the bike on the street.

I remember this whole experience quite well, because I had hooked up an air horn in my little Toyota Celica. The problem was, the little air compressor took about a second to build up enough air to actually blow air through the trumpets. Not a good set-up for a horn, I know, but I was just a smart kid. My brother hated the horn-delay arrangement, and he was the one who got the priviledge of driving the Trooper around.

I found this to be a most unusual way of taking a motorcycle driving test, and I don't know if that's how it's still done- this was way back in 1989-90. Any other states use that technique?

[schoeney]

Originally Posted by Dan Lund

Here's an idea that will never happen, but I just thought up.

Have the licensee be hooked up to a mic and radio and the examiner riding behind on another bike. Have the licensee announce what he/she's doing and what they are looking at and responding to as they ride.

Have some general categories and if they have a miss in too many categories they fail. I wonder how many guys that would pull off the road?

It would be nice if riding was a craft, not a statement.

Good idea Dan....I can hear the instructor now..."turn left up this bridge pillar, then make a quick acceleration off the jump, and circle around in the skateboard park bowl".

[dantama]

Originally Posted by schoeney

Good idea Dan....I can hear the instructor now..."turn left up this bridge pillar, then make a quick acceleration off the jump, and circle around in the skateboard park bowl".

Have somebody besides me calling out the instructions! :)

[jamiep24]

I do know one thing. The MSF course is the best choice. I bet I rode that bike for 4 or 5 hours combined. If you go to the DMV site, they'll probably make you go around the block without wetting yourself and you pass. You learn a lot more from the course and gain a lot of confidence that you can transfer to a bigger bike and to the highway. My Nomad is my first bike and I didn't want to have to learn how to ride on "MY" new bike.

[flightdoc]

I'm glad to hear many of you are glad you took the MSF course. I had a big break in my riding career and took the course and learned much from it. Now I teach the MSF course and see many old timers taking it and being shocked at what they didn't know. You can only learn so much from what we post here. You have to go out there and get the training then get build the experience. By the way...taking the MSF course is only the first step in learning to ride well. I've had many students that weren't ready for the rode yet and told them so. I always suggest to all the students to get on thier own bikes and ride them to a big empty lot and practice what they've learned until comfortable. I've know many people that have passed the DMV exam to drive a car and have never been good at that either.

Good/safe riding

vin

[tkd]

I remember a freind telling me a similar story about getting a license in Texas a few years back. Here in MN, you have to schedule an appointment and actually do a cone course that involves things such as emergency braking, swerves, smooth acceleration through a curve, and figure 8's in a box. While I think these are good tests, everything happens in a parking lot at 20mph or less. Seems like some actual real-world conditions (potholes, cars, lights) might not be a bad addition. The MSF course here administers the test at the end of day 2 and about 8-10 hours practicing the drills.

The scary part----you get a learner's permit by passing a written test. Upon passing that you are eligible to ride ANY size bike during daylight hours and no interstate and no passengers. (It stays light here in the summer till 9:30pm and you can go a lot of places w/o Interstates). I looked at the book for 5 minutes and got 96% because I was in a hurry. I had riden dirt as a kid, but never on the streets and within 15 mins, I legal to ride anything on 2 wheels for all intents and purposes.