1700cc Nomad Power questions

[R_W_B]

(my first post on this forum, joined yesterday)

I rode my first Nomad today on a test ride. It was a brand new bike. I love the way it looks, the way it sits, and handles, but .......

I need some experienced input here. I realize brand new engines are not quite as powerful until broken in and also the Nomad weighs almost 200lbs more than my Harley Street Bob. But with my Bob having only 1584cc and the Nomad having 1700cc I was kinda hoping for at least somewhere near the same power on acceleration from the Nomad.

My Harley has no cam, no internal mods at all. It does have the big Air cleaner kit, Vance & Hines Big Shots dual pipes and a Doebeck TFI fuel richener.

When I rode the Nomad I tried accelerating several times from 1st thru 3rd and I was extremely disappointed. My Harley would literally blow the new Nomad 1700 off the strip in the 1/4 mile. I am disappointed because I like the Nomad, but it just seems to accelerate like a sled compared to my Bob.

I wondering if after Nomad was broke in, with big Air and slip on's (to get rid of the CAT) and a Doebeck or something, it could add substancial kick to it. My Harley had quite a bit of kick even before I put the Doebeck on it.

Would appreciate any and all input on this and the experience you guys have had, especially guys that have rode both the Nomad and the HD Road King. I surmise the Road King would be slower than my lighter Bob also, but have never ridden one. I'm even wondering if they had the Nomad out of tune (they had just added fluids to it). I told the salesman pretty much what I'm telling you but he had no comment.

I'm disallusioned at present.

[fish]

are you going drag racing or touring?

[R_W_B]

Originally Posted by fish

are you going drag racing or touring?

That's a fair question, but nope not drag racing. Would like some power for certain road conditions though. Was just wondering why the 1700 doesn't deliver more near to my 1584, or if the new engines are "that much slower" than one broke in ?

[Top Cat]

The nomad is more of a touring bike.
It is not a sport bike.
If you are looking for a performance bike the Nomad is not it.
If you want a nice bike with a bunch of accessories already on it then then I think the Nomad is the best bang for the buck out there.

[redjay]

At 10,000 kms the 1700 motor in my stock Voyager has more grunt than it did when I bought it at 2400 kms. It is quicker than my 1600 Nomad was with TFI and larger air intake.

[RACNRAY]

"""(my first post on this forum, joined yesterday)

I rode my first Nomad today on a test ride. It was a brand new bike. I love the way it looks, the way it sits, and handles, but .......

I need some experienced input here. I realize brand new engines are not quite as powerful until broken in and also the Nomad weighs almost 200lbs more than my Harley Street Bob. But with my Bob having only 1584cc and the Nomad having 1700cc I was kinda hoping for at least somewhere near the same power on acceleration from the Nomad.

My Harley has no cam, no internal mods at all. It does have the big Air cleaner kit, Vance & Hines Big Shots dual pipes and a Doebeck TFI fuel richener.

When I rode the Nomad I tried accelerating several times from 1st thru 3rd and I was extremely disappointed. My Harley would literally blow the new Nomad 1700 off the strip in the 1/4 mile. I am disappointed because I like the Nomad, but it just seems to accelerate like a sled compared to my Bob.

I wondering if after Nomad was broke in, with big Air and slip on's (to get rid of the CAT) and a Doebeck or something, it could add substancial kick to it. My Harley had quite a bit of kick even before I put the Doebeck on it.

Would appreciate any and all input on this and the experience you guys have had, especially guys that have rode both the Nomad and the HD Road King. I surmise the Road King would be slower than my lighter Bob also, but have never ridden one. I'm even wondering if they had the Nomad out of tune (they had just added fluids to it). I told the salesman pretty much what I'm telling you but he had no comment.

I'm disallusioned at present."""


Sounds like your evaluation is a pretty fair and accurate assessment of the Vulcan 1700's.
The 1700's are highly restricted in stock form to meet EPA and DOT noise standards. I do believe Kawi went too far as there are lots of skoots out there that make more raucus stock and supposedly meet those standards. When I compare the overall noise of a stock
Vulcan to other skoots they are just too damn quiet. You are also correct in the fact that new engines are tight and, uh, slow. During the course of breaking in my 1700 i could feel how the engines characteristics changed, it loosened up, accelerated quicker and got smoother. A noticeable change and improvement from when i drove it away from the dealer.

So...the Vulcans respond to the typical intake/exhaust/tuning mods, and maybe even moreso than other skoots. A good pair of slip-ons like Cobra Tri-ovals or the Vance & Hines slip-ons will oncork the exhaust and really improve the sound.

The intake is actually more restrictive than the exhaust, and a BAK will go a loooong way towards waking a Vulcan up. Both of these mods also go a long way to allowing the engine to run cooler and get better gas mileage.

I have worked with many different types of fuel injection tuning devices and you cannot match the tunability of a Power Commander, and proper FI tuning is crucial to getting the most out of an engine. Ridden in a sane manner my 1700 will see over 50 mpg with the above mods.

Here is the dyno chart of my skoot, the blue line is stock, the red is a tune i performed back in September of last year, and the green is the latest tune to compensate for mods done lately...

H.P graph...



Torque graph...



Now what you also felt was a BIG mistake Kawi made with the 1700's. Kawi has programmed a HUGE delay in the throttle response. The Vulcans are the new fangled "ride-by-wire" system where the throttle and cables ARE NOT connected to the throttle bodies, but are connected to a "throttle position sensor". The ECU recieves a voltage signal from the tps and then sends voltage to a servo motor mounted on the throttle body that opens the butterflies. Unfortunately the delay programmed into the ECU creates a delay and somewhat lazy acceleration. I developed a mod for the 1700's that helps tremendously in reducing this lag. Here is a link to a discussion about the results members have noted with my mod...

http://www.vulcanbagger.com/forums/s...light=throttle

All in all the 1700's have a huge potential for improvement over stock. I love my Vulcan, i have ammassed 25,000 miles on it in 15 months of ownership.

HOPE THIS HELPS

RACNRAY

[R_W_B]

Originally Posted by redjay

At 10,000 kms the 1700 motor in my stock Voyager has more grunt than it did when I bought it at 2400 kms. It is quicker than my 1600 Nomad was with TFI and larger air intake.

Well that's encouraging to hear and I've broke in maybe three in my time and noticed "some" improvement. But mostly (due to raising a family etc) had to buy most of my bikes and cages used.

I also got a very enligtening reply on a Harley forum, he said for me to ride the Road King and then compare. He said the extra weight of the RK also pulls it's pep down somewhat. He had never riden a Nomad though.

I really don't want a race bike, but I guess I just never realized how much more power my Bob has than the touring bikes. It helps to hear you guys input though. Right now I'm just struggling with prices, options and what I need to decide on.

They have a used Kawa Classic 2000 Lt with 25,xxx miles on it and I know that thing will get up and move. But I just kinda really liked the looks and functionality of the Nomad a lot !.

Appreciate any other input from anyone, it helps.

[R_W_B]

Originally Posted by RACNRAY

Sounds like your evaluation is a pretty fair and accurate assessment of the Vulcan 1700's.
The 1700's are highly restricted in stock form to meet EPA and DOT noise standards. I do believe Kawi went too far as there are lots of skoots out there that make more raucus stock and supposedly meet those standards. . . . . . . . . You are also correct in the fact that new engines are tight and, uh, slow. During the course of breaking in my 1700 i could feel how the engines characteristics changed, it loosened up, accelerated quicker and got smoother. A noticeable change and improvement from when i drove it away from the dealer.

So...the Vulcans respond to the typical intake/exhaust/tuning mods, and maybe even moreso than other skoots. A good pair of slip-ons like Cobra Tri-ovals or the Vance & Hines slip-ons will oncork the exhaust and really improve the sound.

The intake is actually more restrictive than the exhaust, and a BAK will go a loooong way towards waking a Vulcan up. Both of these mods also go a long way to allowing the engine to run cooler and get better gas mileage.

I have worked with many different types of fuel injection tuning devices and you cannot match the tunability of a Power Commander, and proper FI tuning is crucial to getting the most out of an engine. Ridden in a sane manner my 1700 will see over 50 mpg with the above mods.

Here is the dyno chart of my skoot, the blue line is stock, the red is a tune i performed back in September of last year, and the green is the latest tune to compensate for mods done lately...

Now what you also felt was a BIG mistake Kawi made with the 1700's. Kawi has programmed a HUGE delay in the throttle response. The Vulcans are the new fangled "ride-by-wire" system where the throttle and cables ARE NOT connected to the throttle bodies, but are connected to a "throttle position sensor". The ECU recieves a voltage signal from the tps and then sends voltage to a servo motor mounted on the throttle body that opens the butterflies. Unfortunately the delay programmed into the ECU creates a delay and somewhat lazy acceleration. I developed a mod for the 1700's that helps tremendously in reducing this lag. Here is a link to a discussion about the results members have noted with my mod...

http://www.vulcanbagger.com/forums/s...light=throttle

All in all the 1700's have a huge potential for improvement over stock. I love my Vulcan, i have ammassed 25,000 miles on it in 15 months of ownership.

HOPE THIS HELPS

RACNRAY

Yes this helps A LOT !. My old eyes can't read the numbers on the charts but I will check out the throttle thing. Seems I read something about that on Gadget's page. Anyhow this is easing my mind a bit and helping me to rationalize the change I am proposing for my ride and also what possibilities I have for pepping it up a bit for keeping up with group rides of all kinds of bikes. Or getting the heck out of the way of a Semi on a short access ramp. Thanks a bunch man and appreciate any other input from anyone.

I don't mind being the stupid, I'm only interesting in learning the low down.

[RACNRAY]

Stock peak H.P. was 64.97, i now have 86.67. The black line crossing the runs at 4000rpm is a floating cursor i can move to any point on the graph, and where a run crosses the cursor the power is dispayed. So stock power at 4000 rpm was 58.19, i now have 78.68.

My stock peak torque was 79.39 pnds, I now have 106.03 pnds. The cursor is at 3000 rpm, stock torque was 78.63, i now have 104.82. This thing pulls so hard now and accelerating is effortless, especilly when passing on the hi-way. It is a pure joy to ride.

RACNRAY

[R_W_B]

Originally Posted by RACNRAY

Stock peak H.P. was 64.97, i now have 86.67. The black line crossing the runs at 4000rpm is a floating cursor i can move to any point on the graph, and where a run crosses the cursor the power is dispayed. So stock power at 4000 rpm was 58.19, i now have 78.68.

My stock peak torque was 79.39 pnds, I now have 106.03 pnds. The cursor is at 3000 rpm, stock torque was 78.63, i now have 104.82. This thing pulls so hard now and accelerating is effortless, especilly when passing on the hi-way. It is a pure joy to ride.

RACNRAY

Thanks again Ray, these numbers are impressive and definitely shows what possibilities the 1700 has. I'm confused though on the stock torque being at 79.39 ( I'm assuming pnds = Ft. LBs ?). The Kawa specs show it at 108 doesn't it ?

[Monkeyman]

The Kaw 2k is a BEAST. I thought about buying one but I wanted bags and the 2k has it's own set of problems (like piston rings). Part of the issue is gearing. I'm guessing the Nomad is geared very differently than the Street Bob as the Street Bob is more of an around town bike than a long legged cruiser.

[RACNRAY]

Originally Posted by R_W_B

Thanks again Ray, these numbers are impressive and definitely shows what possibilities the 1700 has. I'm confused though on the stock torque being at 79.39 ( I'm assuming pnds = Ft. LBs ?). The Kawa specs show it at 108 doesn't it ?

Manufacturor's specs for H.P. and torque are always taken at the crankshaft on an engine dyno, and probably represents the best. These skoots are mass produced and each skoots power output can vary dramatically.

Case in point, here's the dyno graph showing the power and torque between two totallly stock Vaqueros...



My skoot is almost down by 6 H.P. and 11 ft/lbs torque. Mass production at it's worst!!

RACNRAY

[R_W_B]

Ray I downloaded your charts and viewed them in a Pic viewer where I could zoom in enough to read them. The HP rise as the rpms increased was impressive but I did not seem to "feel" much increase above 3500 rpms on the OEM test ride.

The Torque chart however did in fact show just about what I felt, speaking in terms of the rise and fall of the line, not actual Ft. Lbs comparatively. Once the Nomad went past say 3200 rpms it just didn't have much that I could tell. In fact about that point I could hear the hydraulic tappets making noise. I surmise since they just added fluids they were not adequately pumped up yet. But it almost felt like a govenor kicked in around 3500 and it just lacked any further noticable punch.

And the jumping line on your lower rpms was exactly kinda what I felt starting out. I suspect much worse on my OEM test ride due to the throttle issue. It felt like it was "trying" to find it's power band.

Originally Posted by RACNRAY

Manufacturor's specs for H.P. and torque are always taken at the crankshaft on an engine dyno . . . . . .

Oh ok that clears that up.

[--------MonkeyMan
The Kaw 2k is a BEAST. I thought about buying one but I wanted bags and the 2k has it's own set of problems (like piston rings). Part of the issue is gearing. I'm guessing the Nomad is geared very differently than the Street Bob as the Street Bob is more of an around town bike than a long legged cruiser.
---------]

Well that's interesting to know, I hadn't researched the 2K Classic that much, wonder what they did wrong with the rings ? In my opinion the only thing Kawa did wrong with 2K is stop making them, and not putting hard bags on um. But anyhow back to the Nomad.

MonkeyMan I think that probably is definetly part of the equation. 1st Gear in the Harley is wound out in fairly short order but second gear however will take me all the way to 60mph without going redline, and gets there fast. I would say second gear is the strongest overall pull on the Harley.

Anyhow "all" of you guys replies have been very helpful. I honestly love the Nomad in every other aspect so it's just a matter of getting used to the slower pickup and over time putting a few performance mods on it.

In the next few days I'm gonna go and test ride some Harley Road Kings just to compare apples to apples, and also to make sure I know all my options before I sink this much money. But honestly I like the Nomad more than the Road King as far as the way it sits, the way it looks and obviously the standard including items, it's a "MUCH" better buy for what you get.

Is there a "most" recommended big Air Kit for the Nomad ?

[majeff]

If you are looking for speed in a 1700 you won't find it. The bike is made for torque to carry your 300 pound girlfriend and pull a trailer. I bought a new 2010 Voyager and I too was disappointed in the 1700. Needless to say after 8 months I traded the bike off.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Top Cat

If you want a nice bike with a bunch of accessories already on it then then I buy an Ultra Classic

So true.