oil cooler for Nomads?

[trosco]

I asked this question in another thread and then thought that it would make more sense to post this thread.
Our bikes only hold 3 quarts of oil. OK, 3.3 qts for you obsessive-compulsive types. Our design, wet sump with no external exchange tank for cooling, is not the best for controlling oil temps or maintaining oil life. Water cooling makes a big difference and I may just be a belts and suspenders type but I have been looking for a way to put a external oil cooler on my bike (2007 Nad). I have not found one. Anyone had any luck doing that?
Thanks all.

[Todd]

My thoughts, for what its worth.....this would be impractical. The engine is designed and set up to run at optimal temps via the fluid cooled system in place. You would increase your oil capacity and with all the drainage etc possibly not be able to use the existing, poorly designed, IMHO, site glass method to ensure proper oil level.

Any designed system would do you very little good unless you were moving and had air flow by the cooling fins unless you put an auxiliary fan on it........and you already have one of those to cool the fluid that keeps the bike (whole crankcase including oil) at optimal operating temp...so it's a wash.

I dont see it as practical or necessary...but that's me.

[blowndodge]

Your are mostly correct Toddster. Water cooled motorcycle engines rarely if any have an external oil cooler for the reason you mentioned. If the oil was to get in the severe hot range the radiator fan and/or coolant would suffice to bring the temps back down. If the fan is cycling correctly on and off the oil has not been allowed to overheat and cook itself to death.

the fan kicks on in the 220F range I believe. This temp is totally acceptable for oil. Oil doesn't cook until it nears 300F. The cooling system would never let the motor oil heat up that high.

[macmac]

BD, I think you are being very conservitive about the heat for cooking the oil, I would venture below 550 degrees, but over that another 50 degrees is way to hot.. nearly the flash point. That is just my opinon BD.. Just adding to your point.

Also these bikes are not exactly water coooled, not with just 2.5 quarts.. The cooling fins are real working cooling fins which cool oil.

I agree it would be probematic to add a cooler for the reasons Todd stated. It could be done, but it would take some figuring.

One way would be using a check valve to retain the oil in the cooler for a proper reading, but would be difficult to insure a proper crankcase level, while another way would be mount the cooler so low it uses graviety to hold the amont of extra and the oil pump would have to pull that oil to use it. Then the cooler would need a drain.

Since the oil lines are long now, there is trapped oil you don't get all of anyway in a oil change.

Adding to them to place a cooler in line will just add to the problem.

The last way is to steal oil from the cranck case like old VW did, and let most of it drain down with the engine off.. Not really very practical.

[ringadingh]

I think all you guys hit it on the head pretty good, It would probably cause other problems with improper oil level and poor drainage.

[coacha]

Hmm...ahhh...yeah, what they said about the fins and things.

[Todd]

...and you're the only bait in town..............................................

[trosco]

Gosh, I thought there would be some industrious person out there that had done this?
I own two Vettes and both have engines that are water cooled. The 02 has SLP Rampage III kit (572 RWHP) and one of the required mods of the kit was a external oil cooler. My 69 is a Autocross car, I run in RPB (race prepared group b) and it's not street legal. I run a Champ 5 chamber 7qt oil pan and remote dual oil filter set up. That set up allows a in-line oil cooler and was one of the strong recommendations of my engine builder.
Addi tonal fluid cooling (oil first plus trans and even brake fluid) is one of the first mods suggested when ever you put a vehicle into severe operations. These guys that make their living building engines think water cooling is not always enough for the oil. On a motorcycle severe use would be things like two up loaded riding at high speed or pulling a trailer and we all do that to our bikes. So I wonder if we wouldn't benefit from additional cooling for our oil in those situations?
The race car and the O2 both employ similar adapter plates at the engines original oil filter location to route oil to a cooler after it has been filtered and then on to the motor. In that set up on the 02 (because the cooler is higher than the oil filter location) the oil in the cooler drains along with the rest of the oil that drains when you remove the filter.
I am toying with ideas about how that design could be adapted to our bikes. But I was hoping that one of those brilliant guys like Gadget or Trip had already done it.
Oh, if anybody is interested, there are a few pics of both cars on the facebook page my daughter started for me. Just look for Thomas Ross Chess

[Todd]

apples -n- oranges :) :) :) :)

[blowndodge]

Trosco,

sounds like you have a nice stable of race cars!

Here is where I think there are differences. From the sound of it your race cars are putting out more than 1 horsepower per cubic inch at least!

A higher thermodynamic force is needed to increase horsepower, therefore horsepower = heat. I think we can all agree to this.

Nomads are producing about 1/2 RWHP per cubic inch of displacement or half of the thermodynamics of the race cars that you have.

Even though you've outlined severe duty on a Nomad as two up towing a trailer, even in that situation that is nowhere near the heat generating thermodynamics produced by your race cars even at much less that full throttle. Your race engines need the additional cooling because the metallurgy designed in the components were not meant to be heated that high.

In my motorcycle drag racing days our motors only going 1/4 mile would heat up the lower end so much that the cases would turn a bronze color. That was only 1/4 mile runs!

Remember horsepower = heat or heat is the by-product of the thermal combustion force. Nomads have no horsepower!! or not enough to put them into "critical heat" stage than we need to reduce it or melt the motor!

[macmac]

Bronze color apx 375/380 degrees F at the surface of the case! That's hot, hot enough to temper glass hard tool steel to be a blade. No doubt inside parts would be a peacock blue as a guess BD. That is closer to 600 degrees F.

Just in case you are not into black smithing, these colors sometimes are refered to as a Parade of Colors, which can be used in tempering by a tool maker, making tools in a primitive way.

And yes we could install oil coolers, but they would need a drain on the body, and what ever oil was in it could not be allowed to change the level in the site glass.

That might mean check valves going in and check valves going out. Another problem is where could we install it?

There is hardly room for a relay. If you install it in the conventional way it will heat the radiator, and mess up air flow. Hell a tool bag used to be std under the head lamp between the forks and we can't even do that!

Well you can but it will hit the fender and chafe the paint, if the tool bag is worthy of being called a tool bag.

Better a female rider could make up a roll kit to hold make up, and maybe get away with that..

Hang a oil cooler a tad to low and yer gonna punch rocks right thru it.

Sometimes i am amazed at the large size of these biikes, and how limited they are in what else you can mount and make places to mount, which is very limited if you ask me.

[ponch]

Hey Mac, you may find this interesting. My 2001 VW has a water cooled oil filter adapter housing. The system pumps antifreeze through it.

Originally Posted by macmac

Bronze color apx 375/380 degrees F at the surface of the case! That's hot, hot enough to temper glass hard tool steel to be a blade. No doubt inside parts would be a peacock blue as a guess BD. That is closer to 600 degrees F.

Just in case you are not into black smithing, these colors sometimes are refered to as a Parade of Colors, which can be used in tempering by a tool maker, making tools in a primitive way.

And yes we could install oil coolers, but they would need a drain on the body, and what ever oil was in it could not be allowed to change the level in the site glass.

That might mean check valves going in and check valves going out. Another problem is where could we install it?

There is hardly room for a relay. If you install it in the conventional way it will heat the radiator, and mess up air flow. Hell a tool bag used to be std under the head lamp between the forks and we can't even do that!

Well you can but it will hit the fender and chafe the paint, if the tool bag is worthy of being called a tool bag.

Better a female rider could make up a roll kit to hold make up, and maybe get away with that..

Hang a oil cooler a tad to low and yer gonna punch rocks right thru it.

Sometimes i am amazed at the large size of these biikes, and how limited they are in what else you can mount and make places to mount, which is very limited if you ask me.

[macmac]

The turbo unit in my 85 volvo has coolant and oil cycled thru it. Heat transfer is always a good thing. The volvo being turbo has a factory oil cooler too.

I added one for the truck's engine, as it gets pretty warm plowing snow, and the tranny has another I added.

A big difference from the 76-81 yammi triples is when they went from 750 to 850 theoretical cc's the 850 got a oil cooler. In a triple in line cly #2 gets pretty hot.

Air oil cooled twins have problems with the rear cly, being out of the air flow, and could benifit from coolers.

[trosco]

In my Harley days we'd cut the line from engine to oil tank and put a T valve in it. Open would route the oil coming from motor to a $19 NAPA automatic trans fluid cooler that we mounted with three rubber hose clamps to the RH rear crash bar and then back to tank side of cut line and closed (for winter time in Michigan) it would let oil go straight to tank. We were getting 20K plus out of our 74CI dressers back then when the other guys were lucky to get 12K before ring job. I did pretty much the same thing to my 1973 Yam 750cc and I got 58K out of motor with only a new cam drive chain. And that was the 2 cylinder 4 cycle 750 that cycle mag voted 1 of 10 worst motorcycles ever made! Oh for the good ole days.... oh wait.... motor cycles last three times as long now and perform better and don't leak and so maybe the old days weren't really that great?