Turn in point.

Dan.....

Just got off my majestic throne, where I typically read my Rider magazine.

Was reading bout the ARC classes in the new Rider. I spent some time looking at the graph on turn points on left curves.


I notoriously always ride in either the #1 or #3 riding position, because I tend to be more comfortable in the left side of the lane... close to the centerline.

I consciously attempt to set up for left turns in the right half of the lane, but have to fight the tendancy to be too far left. I have a mental block on being too close to the right!

My right hand curves and turns are not a problem.

I've brought this up before I believe, so pardon me if I'm repeating.....


Staying left like I do is fine on the freeways and long sweepy curves, but for tight left turns it is not good!!!

Any advice on taking the best line so as not to have to adjust mid turn?

Thanks, Nico


(Blowndodge, I can be in Lakewood in <2 hrs. and have you totally dismembered in no time flat) :-* :-*

[oldbiker]

I've got the same problem. Too far left in a tight left turn can get you dead. I've been trying to concentrate on entering a left turn on the right side and staying there. Up here in the mountains there are no guardrails on some roads. If you go off the road on the right you're just as dead as you would be after a head on. Living in Florida for 25 years spoiled me. Everything is flat and I think there's only four turns in the entire state.

I've got the same problem. Too far left in a tight left turn can get you dead. I've been trying to concentrate on entering a left turn on the right side and staying there. Up here in the mountains there are no guardrails on some roads. If you go off the road on the right you're just as dead as you would be after a head on. Living in Florida for 25 years spoiled me. Everything is flat and I think there's only four turns in the entire state.

Exactly Oldie..... getting over to the right, knowing there' a steep cliff there, takes a little more confidence and huevos than I have at times.... maybe I'll move to Florida. ;)

[dantama]

Dan.....

Just got off my majestic throne, where I typically read my Rider magazine.

Was reading bout the ARC classes in the new Rider. I spent some time looking at the graph on turn points on left curves.


I notoriously always ride in either the #1 or #3 riding position, because I tend to be more comfortable in the left side of the lane... close to the centerline.

I consciously attempt to set up for left turns in the right half of the lane, but have to fight the tendancy to be too far left. I have a mental block on being too close to the right!

My right hand curves and turns are not a problem.

I've brought this up before I believe, so pardon me if I'm repeating.....


Staying left like I do is fine on the freeways and long sweepy curves, but for tight left turns it is not good!!!

Any advice on taking the best line so as not to have to adjust mid turn?

Thanks, Nico


(Blowndodge, I can be in Lakewood in <2 hrs. and have you totally dismembered in no time flat) :-* :-*

Nico, I haven't read the story yet, but I do get that mag; so I'll answer before reading it and then see if a change my mind after reading it perhaps later this week.

I too am more comfortable in the left portion of a lane on mountain roads. I don't know where it comes from, perhaps its being wary of deer and being near the center gives more time to react?

I am a fan of curves and have found that every curve but two in Colorado, (in 6,000 miles of mostly mountain riding this year), can be taken at double the advisory signage if you are a very aggressive rider. (Not advocating it, just stating that it can be done on a Nomad; it is certainly safer to not).

I'll have to pay more attention next time I'm out, so this is from memory.

I'm amazed sometimes at bikes in front of me that take an outside, inside, outside line through a corner, and they come so close to the center line that their bars are in the oncoming lane. Though their tires may not be.

With out really thinking about it, I've developed a balance between being able to see through the corner, and picking a line that will let you get through it fast.

Generally I think the fastest way through is an outside, inside, outside. But I balance that with the fact that you will probably be turning in sooner, and therefor can't see through the corner as far. It also would mean being on the outside edge twice, not a good place if a deer jumped out.

So if I'm in an aggressive mood, and going fast, I'll turn in a bit later than the fastest line would be. That gives me more time to see through the corner and know what is coming up and only give up a little speed.

I'm giving up the fastest line, in exchange for knowing what's coming up. Car over the line? Sand in the corner? etc.

Depending on how sharp the turn is, and how fast I'm going, my delayed turn in might end up looking like, outside, inside, outside at the extreme. To outside, inside, middle, in not so extreme.

If this isn't making total sense, I'll make a diagram, but that's generally what I do with fast left turns.

Sounds just like the graph in the article... recommening a delayed turn in. It all makes sense, but I have to consciously get to the outside to begin with!

[flightdoc]

Home from my 2 week National Guard duty just in time to save you guys!!!! Can't get rid of me that easy.
Interesting thread here. My 2 cents.
Outside inside outside isn't dependent on the painted lines or road edges. It's the line , in your mind that you should be riding. That line in your mind should allow for issues as already mentioned. If you are traveling at such a rate of speed that there isn't time to safely react then you are going to fast. That doesn't mean that most of us don't do that ( on occasiion) but understand that you are taking a risk. If you took the MSF basic course you may remember the "ladder of risk" mentioned the first classroom period. If you are travel at a speed that would not allow you to avoid or stop to avoid an obstacle then you are willing to be standing up on an upper wrung of the ladder.

[dui546]

My 2 cents.
Outside inside outside isn't dependent on the painted lines or road edges. It's the line , in your mind that you should be riding. That line in your mind should allow for issues as already mentioned. If you are traveling at such a rate of speed that there isn't time to safely react then you are going to fast. That doesn't mean that most of us don't do that ( on occasiion) but understand that you are taking a risk.

Great point Doc...I find that group riding with varied experienced levels can pose a higher risk on very curvy roadways...Everyone is riding "their" line (in their sandbox, if you will) and forgetting to give room to the other guy riding "his or her" line (in what they believe is their sandbox). Sometimes it is best to collapse the group to a single file when navigating a challenging section of roadway.

I investigated a crash or accident that involved 6 of 8 motorcycles that were riding together on a two lane roadway. The group approached a bend and the 4th rider struck the 3rd in the turn (it was an outside inside outside maneuver). Those bikes went down. That caused a unique chain reaction because the 5th and 6th tried to avoid the collision and were actually respectively struck by the 7th and 8th who were caught by surprise. The crashes were classified as 3 separate incidents. They were not speeding but also did not have time to react to the roadway and incident. They were all lucky that there wasn't a vehicle coming the opposite direction at the time or it would have been much more serious than scratches, dents, and abrasions. Everyone agreed that it was a distance or space problem that was shortened when they slowed to make the turn.

Number 1 and 2 were the most experienced riders and were not involved. Where do you suggest the most experienced riders should be in a group ride Doc? I would think front and rear.

Home from my 2 week National Guard duty just in time to save you guys!!!! Can't get rid of me that easy.
Interesting thread here. My 2 cents.
Outside inside outside isn't dependent on the painted lines or road edges. It's the line , in your mind that you should be riding. That line in your mind should allow for issues as already mentioned. If you are traveling at such a rate of speed that there isn't time to safely react then you are going to fast. That doesn't mean that most of us don't do that ( on occasiion) but understand that you are taking a risk. If you took the MSF basic course you may remember the "ladder of risk" mentioned the first classroom period. If you are travel at a speed that would not allow you to avoid or stop to avoid an obstacle then you are willing to be standing up on an upper wrung of the ladder.

Very good point! I look at the painted line all the time...... and the road edges!

Keep sharing!

[Top Cat]

Nico, if I looked at the road edge or the painted line I think it would give me target fixation. You go where you look.
I like to come into a lefthander just to the right of where my passenger side tire would be if I was in my truck. This will give me a fairly good look at whats in the curve or coming around the curve. If nothing is coming I will drift twords the center line but stay on my own side of the road. If something is coming I will maintain my line all the way through the curve. I am usually going to slow down if it looks like a rather sharp turn.
If you remember my post in the thread about going down I changed my line to the outside to miss something in the road on a curve. I wasn't going that fast but I got close to the edge and fixated on it. Couldn't bring bike back and took the field.

[dantama]

Good to have you back Flightdoc, I was wondering why you haven't been around.

And dui, I believe in a prime directive that states that "You Do Not Hit the Bike in Front of You."

Go what ever speed you have to, to make sure you don't ever hit the bike in front of you.

[flightdoc]

all good points.
We teach and I firmly believe letting the most inexperienced riders lead the group. That way they can set the pace at what is comfortable for them. I think alot of experienced bikers and I'm sure I've done it before would take a new rider out and say "follow me" and then push it to much for that new rider.
Target fixation can be a problem too. Always keep moving your gaze ahead.
Nice to hear from you guys.

[unwind2]

Good discussion folks. Thanks for bringing up Nico. ;)

[dantama]

Nico, I got to the magazine today. That graphic on page 27 is exactly what I was talking about.

For every one else, its the April issue of Rider Magazine.

[jussmatt]

All good points guys... one thing...I think TC brought it up... but subconsciously, you will go where you are looking! If you're looking down at the center stripe or the right edge of the road...9 times out of 10 you will find yourself headed in that direction respectively. Like in the MSF class... LOOK in the direction you want to go/turn. Like you Nico & Dan, I prefer to ride near the left also... so when I enter a left turn, I will swing more to the center or even right of the lane before I drop into the turn.... riding through the center of my lane mostly and out to the right side... and once it straightens out...work my way back to the left side of the lane. As a habit, I don't ride side by side in a turn...

[unwind2]

Another question. I don't judge my line of approach in curves based on the person in front of me if riding with hubby or a group. I judge it based on entrance speed, sharpness of curve, how well I can see around the curve etc.... I figure we're never matched for speed, entrance angle, different bikes etc... This is correct isn't it.... that you should not just follow the line of the bike in front of you....our comfort levels and experience levels may be quiet different. Right?