Bummer

[dantama]

I just opened yesterdays mail and find a poor quality photo of my car saying that I was going 15mph over the speed limit :(" title="" border="0"/>

[cactusjack]

Originally Posted by Dan Lund

I just opened yesterdays mail and find a poor quality photo of my car saying that I was going 15mph over the speed limit :(" title="" border="0"/>

Dan, that sucks! How much of a fine is that in Denver? Here it's about $250.

Get this - starting today, they have mobile photo radar units being set up on FREEWAYS and if you get your picture taken, it's a civil rather than criminal citation which means it won't affect your insurance. The state of AZ is money hungry and just wants the revenue to help make up for a projected $1 BILLION budget shortage. The state believes people will more readily pay the fines if they know it won't increase their insurance.

Don't get me started on the whole photo-radar "ruse" that the municipalities try to pawn off as "public safety". They are nothing but a cash-generation machine. Aaaarrrgh!

[socwkbiker]

Dude, that sucks!

[cactusjack]

I just ran across this story related to my previous post (above):

DPS kicks off photo enforcement today

by Adam Sneed - Sept. 26, 2008 09:09 AM
The Arizona Republic

The Arizona Department of Public Safety kicked off its photo speed enforcement program Friday morning, clicking off more than 100 photos of speeding cars in the early hours.

DPS deployed three photo radar vehicles around the Valley, and plans to add more vehicles each week until there are 40 by the end of November.

Lt. James Warriner said one vehicle recorded between 100 and 110 citations by about 8:30 a.m.

The first fixed photo radar camera should be operating by late October, and the program calls for a total of 100 fixed and mobile cameras throughout the state.

[ringadingh]

We had photo radar here a few years ago, they stopped it due to public outcry, and some of the vans got vandalized when parked on the highways. Now there is talk of it possibly returning.

[jussmatt]

That's exactly what I was going to mention Ring!!! I remember about a decade ago, they were trying to do that here in Texas.

They had posted the radar/camera's on the roof's of overpasses. Well... as the story goes...some of us "Good Ole' Rednecks"... decided late at night, that we...uh... they would tape up their license plates... and any other TRUE identifying marks on their trucks. Put on some masks...and go out for a "late night drive". They would drive up to the camera's and blast away w/ shot guns. Needless to say...the expense of getting the camera's fixed far out weighed the revenue of tickets. Since they would have to have cops guard the radar/cameras...it didn't make any sense for the extra cost so they stopped it.

Of course, now they have them at ALLLL of the intersections in Houston. Of course, they only "warn" you at a few...but next time you're in a town... ANY town... just take a look at all the camera's at any intersection!!! Talk about BIG BROTHER!!!!! Somebody told me once that the city wasn't manning the monitors for those camera's either.... IF...and that's a BIG IF...since I'm not sure the guy knew what he was talking about... but if that's true...then WHO the HELL is watching them??? Regardless...BIG BROTHER IS EVERYWHERE!!!!!!!!!

[cactusjack]

When I lived in Utah back in the early 90's one of the cities in the Salt Lake area, West Valley City - had 2 or 3 photo enforcement vans. Eventually, they were found to be in violation of some law and the state ordered them taken out of service and all pending citations dropped. I also seem to recall everyone who ever received a photo ticket had them wiped from their record.

They are all over the place here. Mobile cameras, fixed speed cameras, red light cameras and the dreaded red light/speed cameras.

When they installed a bunch along the portion of the 101 freeway that runs through Scottsdale last year, they had a 30-day warning period. They had pictures of a-holes mooning the cameras, they clocked some guy doing 167 in a Ferrari and a bunch of people on 'Busa's and GSXR's busting 100 MPH. What they didn't tell the people was they would only get a warning for speeding, but any other violation would result in prosecution. Since 20MPH over the limit is a felony in AZ, the people doing 85+ still got served and some got jailed.

[blowndodge]

I wonder how the legality of it would play out in court. In california you have the right to meet your accuser and cross examine them.

"Tell me, Mr. Automated XYZradarfinkster, when you were taking my picture on the day in question, please explain the unbroken chain of evidence that links this picture to my alleged speeding? Can you tell me what human mechanism was in control to avoid an electronic error of my photo being linked to a radar recorded speed produced by another vehicle?

This is of course for an "unmanned" radar machine. I'd fight it just for the fun of it.

Of course you'd want a jury trial.

[dantama]

I've spent 4 hours today researching how to get out of a $40 ticket. They go easy on us with fees here and it doesn't have any points on your license; I guess they figure if they boil us slowly we won't complain.

I've been researching it just for the principle of the thing. Having bounty hunters making money off giving us tickets annoys the hell out of me. A big chunk of the money goes to the bounty hunter company, and part goes to the city. Having our elected officials sick bounty hunters on us just rubs me wrong.

Here's some of what I'm researching.
Sec. 54-834. Judicial notice of automated vehicle identification systems and admissibility of the results from the use of such systems.
(a) The scientific principles and techniques underlying automated vehicle identification systems are generally accepted in the scientific community and produce valid, trustworthy, and reliable results when operated in accordance with the foundation in evidence required under subsection (b) below.
(b) In any prosecution for violations under chapter 54 of this Code, the results of any automated vehicle identification system shall be admitted into evidence to show the speed of the motor vehicle, the location of the vehicle with respect to an intersection, street, stop line, crosswalk, or traffic signal at any particular instant, the color or condition of any traffic signal at any particular instant, the identity of the occupants of the motor vehicle, and the identity of the motor vehicle, if the following foundation is established in evidence:
(1) The person setting up or operating the automated vehicle identification system was qualified to do so through training or experience. Completion of four (4) or more hours of training conducted by a qualified operator on the operation of the automated vehicle identification system shall be deemed prima facie proof of such qualification by the trainee to operate the device; and
(2) The automated vehicle identification system was operated in substantial compliance with the manufacturer's instructions or procedures for operation of the system; and
(3) In any civil or criminal case involving a violation of sections 54-155, 54-156, or 54-157, or any other traffic violation, offense or infraction involving the speed of a motor vehicle, accuracy of the automated vehicle identification system with respect to speed measurements was checked or calibrated through one (1) or more of the following means:
(a) The use of two (2) external tuning forks with or without an annual calibration of those tuning forks; or
(b) The use of one (1) external tuning fork which was calibrated within one (1) year before or after the photo-radar speed measurement at issue in the particular case; or
(c) Calibration or certification of the accuracy of the device by the manufacturer within one (1) year before or after the photo-radar speed measurement at issue in the particular case.
(c) The provisions of this section shall not be construed to limit the introduction, reception, or consideration of other evidence or techniques for the measurement of the speed of a motor vehicle, the location of a motor vehicle with respect to an intersection, street, stop line, crosswalk, or traffic signal, the color or condition of the traffic signal at any particular instant, identification of the motor vehicle, identification of the occupants of a motor vehicle, or other relevant facts in any traffic case.
(Ord. No. 902-98, § 3, 12-14-98)

I have a lot more, just to make them jump through hoops to collect the bounty on me.

[cactusjack]

I had to go to court with my youngest son last year and there were a number of cases on the docket before they got to him. Several of these were from red light cameras. You pretty much can't beat them in court. The city brings in a police officer who is trained in the operation of the camera as an expert and nobody could prevail against him.

[dantama]

One thing that they did smart here :( is on serving you.

In some states people are just ignoring the ticket in the mail, and waiting for the hand delivered one to get there making you sign that you will appear.

Living in a building that you have to be buzzed in through an intercom, I thought I'd just hide out from getting served. When you get a real ticket, you sign promising that you will appear. With the photo, I never signed anything and planned to just hide for the sport of it.

Well Denver did it smart. If you have to be served the ticket, they charge you a minimum of $35, and then actual costs for as long as it takes to get you to sign. That's not playing fair. That's pretty much like making us volunteer to get a ticket vs a cop catching us and pulling us over.

One price for the ticket, and another charge for asking you to promise to appear.

[rksaw]

Originally Posted by Dan Lund

I just opened yesterdays mail and find a poor quality photo of my car saying that I was going 15mph over the speed limit :(" title="" border="0"/>

Dan, You're going about this all wrong! Denver needs to go after your CAR, after-all it was your car that was "going 15mph over the speed limit". We constantly hear about the SUV that killed someone or the gun that is reckless. Well let their camera take your car to court and duke it out "Robot Wars" style!
Rich

[cactusjack]

Originally Posted by Dan Lund

One thing that they did smart here :( is on serving you.

In some states people are just ignoring the ticket in the mail, and waiting for the hand delivered one to get there making you sign that you will appear.

Living in a building that you have to be buzzed in through an intercom, I thought I'd just hide out from getting served. When you get a real ticket, you sign promising that you will appear. With the photo, I never signed anything and planned to just hide for the sport of it.

Well Denver did it smart. If you have to be served the ticket, they charge you a minimum of $35, and then actual costs for as long as it takes to get you to sign. That's not playing fair. That's pretty much like making us volunteer to get a ticket vs a cop catching us and pulling us over.

One price for the ticket, and another charge for asking you to promise to appear.

When I first moved here the photo tickets were somewhat foreign to me. Everybody said if you receive a ticket in the mail ignore it. They have to serve you in person. In AZ, they have 120 days to serve you with a photo citation or it gets thrown out. So if you can ignore the mail and dodge the process server, you are fine. However, they don't have to serve you personally. They can serve whomever answers the door at your residence, and you get to pay a charge for the process server.

Apparently (and I don't remember why) but commercial and government vehicles are not subject to photo citations. For some reason, it only applies to privately-owned vehicles.

Geez, what a screwed-up system they have created.

[dantama]

Cactus, I could hide out for 120 days, just not ring anyone through. But we don't have a limit on how long, so they could ring up thousands of dollars trying to serve you. There was no cap on it that I could find.

So I'll just go dispute it and play the court thing. In the end it costs me time and the same $40, but at least the bounty hunters will have to earn the $40, rather than me just handing it over.

I'm comfortable with court procedures and enjoy court much the same as others enjoy Chess. :)

Things where I really do get caught by the police, and I am guilty, I usually just pay the fine. But some private company being set out to try and find me and catch me doing something wrong, that one rubs me wrong. They'll have to earn the money.

[cactusjack]

I wasn't suggesting that you lay low for 120 days, Dan. Just sharing how messed up this kind of thing this is in the lovely Grand Canyon State. Personally, for $40 and no hit to the insurance, I'd just pay the ticket and be done with it. My time is worth more than that. Now if it was a $250 ticket, I might be willing to play some games.