Cheriann dropping her bike

[dantama]

Cheriann talked about dropping her bike in a thread on the travel board. She said we could move it over here to get more opinions and information on the subject.

Originally Posted by CheriAnn

I have a confession to make too....I USED to be very proud of the fact that I had never dumped my bike....until now... :'(

I was following behind Chaz and the Road Captain when we approached a sharp left turn we were taking, the kind that is almost like a u-turn AND we were on an incline uphill. I was cruising along, following Chaz into the turn. However, after Chaz crossed over, a car suddenly appeared over the hill from the other way and I had to make a sudden stop. I KNOW that is what messed me up!!! So, then I had to go into the sharp turn from a stop. I didn't pay attention to my handlebar position and I must have had it too sharply turned because when I started to throttle for the turn, my bike went down to the left, almost in slow motion.....fortunately I wasn't hurt and neither was my bike. It just fell over slowly on the crash bar. The thing that WAS hurt, was my bruised ego!! The people there were GREAT! A guy ran over and lifted my bike for me, two other riders ran ahead of me and blocked traffic coming over the hill from the other side.

I am still SO MAD at myself!!!! DUMB, DUMB, DUMB!!!!!

Originally Posted by Dan Lund

Cheriann, this isn't to criticise you at all, so please don't take it that way, just a pointer.

I think (though I wasn't there to know) that is what probably made you go down was letting off the throttle, not turning the bars to sharply.

You can be stopped and turn the bars all the way to the stops, and pull away. It is a very uncomfortable feeling though. When the holy sh*t feeling hits, if you let off the throttle, you will go down; and letting off the throttle is probably the natural instinct in that situation. Letting out more clutch and giving more throttle is what really needs to happen in that situation.

When riding in a very slow uncomfortable situation, when the instinct to put your foot down or let off the throttle happens, the right thing to do in almost all of them is to let out more clutch and give more throttle.

I wasn't there, but that is what almost always will make you go down when in a tight slow maneuver.

[dantama]

Originally Posted by CheriAnn

Hi Dan!

I'm not offended at all!! You could possibly be right! I just remember it happening so fast (at least to me at the time) After having to stop quickly, I'm sure I had turned my bars straighter for the quick stop. That put me past where I would have comfortably made the turn. So, I'm thinking that maybe you're right! I need to pay attention to that and remember what you have taught me here.
Thank you!!!

[dantama]

Originally Posted by CheriAnn

Okay, this is the person that was directly behind me when I made my goof. Here's what she posted on our local board:
_____________________________
Yeah, I was right behind you and saw how the whole thing came about, and I knew you were going to lay it over when I saw the turn in your handlebars. But after you laid the bike down, I was sitting there with my frozen fingers wondering whether you were going to be able to pick it up or not - and whether I should get off and help you. About the time I finally realized that you needed help a couple of the guys came roaring up from behind, one to block traffic and the other to help you pick your bike up.

To be honest, my body wasn't moving too well in all that cold...I feel bad that I was slow to respond. But, the guys came through and did a great job, and neither you nor the bike was hurt...

BTW, that type of situation is the only time I have had to gently (knock on wood) lay down a bike - came to a stop to make a right hand turn, cranked the handlebars too far and I happened to be on a steep drop-off on the side of the road. The only thing I could do was let the bike come down gently on it's right side. I was embarrassed more than anything else, but I did learn from the experience.

[phenrichs]

Yeah the machines have a tendancy to want to straighten themselves out with increased throttle.

[dantama]

More of my thoughts.

It seems that turning the bars too sharp just isn't a problem. I think that the crux of the problem is uneasy sensations, and pulling the clutch back in or chopping the throttle which makes you go down because your were leaned over.

In the beginning of this video I turn the bars to the stops, then make a 90 degree turn in the first 3 feet after rolling. So it seems that bars turned too far isn't a "cause".

In Cherriann's case, the road also sloped a lot. I practice tight turns on truck loading ramps in industrial areas just for a challenge. It can also be done on sever slopes.

Does anyone else have some thoughts, ideas, or experience dropping a bike in her conditions?

[Yellow Jacket]

That's a good video Dan. I have got to do more parking lot practice!

[darthvulcan]

Dan,

I don't have a lot of specific info to share regarding CheriAnn's mishap, but I did want to mention something about your video.

I've seen that vid several times, and each time notice that you really exaggerate your head positioning when you're looking through your full-over-to-stop position turns. Not only are you looking through, but your head is positioned almost perpendicular to the bike. This tells me that your line of sight doesn't even include your handlebar positioning at all, and just might be the trick to maintaining your balance throughout the whole turn.

Is this true? I gotta tell ya that I'm still too damn chicken to make those full turns, but I fully understand that once you get over the initial "fear" of dumping the bike, it is possible.

This spring, I'm definitely going to practice your techniques, but I think I'll pad up the crash bars just as a precaution.

[dantama]

Originally Posted by Darth

Dan,

I don't have a lot of specific info to share regarding CheriAnn's mishap, but I did want to mention something about your video.

I've seen that vid several times, and each time notice that you really exaggerate your head positioning when you're looking through your full-over-to-stop position turns. Not only are you looking through, but your head is positioned almost perpendicular to the bike. This tells me that your line of sight doesn't even include your handlebar positioning at all, and just might be the trick to maintaining your balance throughout the whole turn.

Is this true? I gotta tell ya that I'm still too damn chicken to make those full turns, but I fully understand that once you get over the initial "fear" of dumping the bike, it is possible.

This spring, I'm definitely going to practice your techniques, but I think I'll pad up the crash bars just as a precaution.

Good Idea to pad the crash bars, mine have rash on them.

Yes, I look way over to were I want to end up going and don't look at the bars at all. The only way I know it was a full lock turn to take off from was that I held it at the bump stop at the beginning and could feel it.

I think that physical sensations that feel out of the ordinary are what causes a lot of crashes. I see it all the time in skiing. The person gets moving too fast, doesn't know what to do with the sensation, then without crossing skis or anything, pretty much sits down and crashes.

On a motorcycle, unusual sensations turn into fear and then grabbing brakes, putting feet down, rolling off the throttle, pulling in the clutch, or a combination of those things depending on speed.

The thing that needs to be gotten over is the unusual feeling, and the instinct to do the wrong thing. It is very hard (at least for me) to get there. It takes a long time for the instinct to roll off the throttle, pull in the clutch, or put a foot down (just to get it run over by the saddle bag crash bar :) ) to be turned into the instinct to let out more clutch, roll on the throttle, and leave the feet on the boards.

Sometimes when I run into trouble like on a loading ramp tight turn or something, I still want to chop the throttle and put a foot down. I almost always catch myself and make myself not do it, but the instinct still pops up when over stressed.

[rksaw]

Originally Posted by Yellow Jacket

That's a good video Dan. I have got to do more parking lot practice!

That's what I was thinking. Can't wait for the summer.

Originally Posted by Dan Lund

Sometimes when I run into trouble like on a loading ramp tight turn or something, I still want to chop the throttle and put a foot down. I almost always catch myself and make myself not do it, but the instinct still pops up when over stressed.

Nice to hear that you're (almost) human!!!

[cheriann]

Dan, what I still find amazing, is that you say a rider could turn the handlebars all the way over, as far as they will turn, and STILL be able to pull away from a stop without going down!

I keep thinking about what you said here, and I bet I did start to go and feel panicky, like I had them turned too sharp.

So, if I had kept throttling throught he weird feeling, the bike wouldn't have gone down from the bars being turned too much?

[dantama]

Originally Posted by CheriAnn

Dan, what I still find amazing, is that you say a rider could turn the handlebars all the way over, as far as they will turn, and STILL be able to pull away from a stop without going down!

Cheriann, in that first exercise on my video link in the prior post, I start facing the painted line 2-3 feet back. I turn the bars to the stop and hold it there. As I move forward I want to go down the painted line so I need to make a 90 degree turn in the first 2-3 feet.

In order to do so, as I move forward I let the bars come away from the stops so I don't go in a 180 away from the painted line.

If I didn't let the bars come away from the stops and didn't give it enough power, I'd fall inside to the left. If I gave it too much power I'd fall to the outside. If I gave it just right, I'd do a 180 or a 360. I put the power right and let the bars straighten and did a 90 degree turn.

Mind you, I'm turning in 2-3 feet. If I was going across a whole lane and turning like in a left turn, its harder to fall from too much throttle because you can use a lot more (don't have to be so precise).

Did you fall inside to the left? Or outside to the right? That will tell us what happened.

Originally Posted by CheriAnn

So, if I had kept throttling through the weird feeling, the bike wouldn't have gone down from the bars being turned too much?

If you fell to the inside, you needed to throttle through the "this doesn't feel normal" feeling. If you fell to the outside, you needed to straighten the bars more after moving forward, or give it less throttle, but you would have had to be giving it way to much and turning way to tight.

[cheriann]

Dan, I fell to the inside.
I have watched your video link a few times now...simply amazing to me!!!
I can't ever imagine being able to do that, but maybe with practice and good coaching in here from you.... ;)

[dantama]

Originally Posted by CheriAnn

Dan, I fell to the inside.
I have watched your video link a few times now...simply amazing to me!!!
I can't ever imagine being able to do that, but maybe with practice and good coaching in here from you.... ;)

Cheriann, if you fell to the inside, it was not enough throttle. As my video shows, you can turn really tight with the bars and not fall down, and falling to the inside when going slow like that is just not enough power to the rear wheel. Otherwise, you'd fall to the outside.

Most of riding a motorcycle that is outside of the norm, whether in a parking lot or in a tricky situation like you were in, is just a matter of getting used to the physical sensation and overcoming instinct.

The physical sensation is the holy sh*t, I'm messed up feeling. The instinct is the put the foot down or chop the throttle. You can get used to the physical sensation pretty easily (at least comparatively). Just like riding a roller coaster, it feels more normal after a while.

Instinct is a little harder to deal with. Our brains are wired in such a way that when it gets overloaded with fear etc. it jumps to instinct to prevent a full system failure and crash of the hard drive. For anyone that has ridden dirt bikes (and most who haven't, just stronger in dirt riders) an oh sh*t moment is followed by putting the foot down. Dirt riders might put the foot down and roll on the throttle followed by hitting their foot with the bag crash bar. But another strong instinct is to chop the throttle.

I rode dirt bikes a lot, so I had to train myself extra hard not to put my foot down instinctually. You don't really think it out and "decide" to put it down, it just goes. I had to mentally tell my self when it started moving to leave it on the board and let out more clutch. As I said in a previous post, if I get too overloaded with a particularly difficult challenge, fear defaults me into instinct and trying to put my foot down. I have to really catch myself to keep it on the board. I suppose you would have to really catch yourself to tell yourself to give it more throttle rather than chopping it.

Here's what I think happened with you I think. You unexpectedly had to stop. Your "leader" was no longer in front of you and between the unexpected stop and the no leader in front "we've messed up" feeling, you moved closer towards the brains instinctual and more crisis mode of thinking.

Mixed in with that, you had a difficult turn to make. Harder to do after the unexpected stop and we've messed up feeling. Might have worked out fine on a solo, knew you were stopping ride.

When it came time to make the turn, you were a little off your game. Then the physical sensation of turning from a stop on an uphill felt strange. Mix that strange feeling with the mind set that you were in, and you probably let off the throttle when it didn't feel the way you were comfortable with.

Not enough momentum made you fall to the inside. I'm confident that more throttle, or letting the clutch out more would have made you continue up the hill and across the lane you needed to cross you make your left turn no problem.

More riding will get you used to the physical sensations of a challenging turn, lots of parking lot practice will you further along in overcoming instinct and building a new default action (letting out more clutch/more throttle).

[cheriann]

Originally Posted by Dan Lund

[quote author=cheriann board=safety thread=8577 post=146006 time=1231344359]
Here's what I think happened with you I think. You unexpectedly had to stop. Your "leader" was no longer in front of you and between the unexpected stop and the no leader in front "we've messed up" feeling, you moved closer towards the brains instinctual and more crisis mode of thinking.

Mixed in with that, you had a difficult turn to make. Harder to do after the unexpected stop and we've messed up feeling. Might have worked out fine on a solo, knew you were stopping ride.

When it came time to make the turn, you were a little off your game. Then the physical sensation of turning from a stop on an uphill felt strange. Mix that strange feeling with the mind set that you were in, and you probably let off the throttle when it didn't feel the way you were comfortable with.

Not enough momentum made you fall to the inside. I'm confident that more throttle, or letting the clutch out more would have made you continue up the hill and across the lane you needed to cross you make your left turn no problem.

More riding will get you used to the physical sensations of a challenging turn, lots of parking lot practice will you further along in overcoming instinct and building a new default action (letting out more clutch/more throttle).

You make so much sense Dan!!! I'm sure my brain felt a slight panic and my instinct was to let up on the throttle and clutch. I'm also sure of this now because when my bike went down, I don't think I was really moving anymore at that point. My bike went down slow and I remember clinging onto the grips trying hard to keep it from going down.... :-[

This makes me want to practice these tight turns from a stop in a parking lot! I have crash bars!!! ;)

I am honestly thrilled to learn all this from you Dan!! I left that scene just thinking I turned the handlebars too far (and so did the rider behind me, as you read). I probably would spent the rest of my riding career making turns too wide, afraid to turn in the handlebars too much. Now I know there are other factors to consider!!!

[kenb]

That video reminds me of the "Ride like a Pro" Instructional videos. If you are using the clutch, throttle,and rear brake in conjunction with looking where you want to go, you can make those turns very easily. It just takes practice. It is amazing how maneuverable a big motorcycle can be when the right tecniques are used.