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Old 04-09-2014, 10:46 PM   #16
Dlweeds   Dlweeds is offline
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Originally Posted by cactusjack View Post
I wasn't saying there was anything wrong with your mod. It's just mostly a cosmetic change and won't result in much performance change. If you really want a performance improvement, the changes would need to be to the right side, as the crossover tube from left to right is a bottleneck that limits the potential amount of air getting to the intake. However, as others have pointed out, that has its own drawbacks.
Totally hear what you're saying. I was hoping to go the inexpensive, do-it-yerself route, and maybe see some modest gains. But, it's hard to argue with a man that has dyno numbers to back him up, as Ray has pointed out.

Like they say, you get what you pay for. I'll probably just have to bite the bullet and get a Thunder or Chuckster kit.
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Old 04-11-2014, 09:47 PM   #17
Snake Ranch   Snake Ranch is offline
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Originally Posted by dshelly View Post
Not real sure what Ma Kaw was thinking when she designed that air tube between the cylinders. More power and cool air have been known to go together since the invention of the internal combustion engine.

If you really want some more low end torque, I think chuckster makes a true right side intake for the 1700's .
I have not put a thermistor probe in the passage between the cylinders. But Ma Kaw might have. One thing to keep in mind is if the air temp gets to cool the fuel does not atomize properly. Having the air temp at a temperature to get the best atomization is what I hope they would strive for. If the fuel does not atomize properly it will drop out and "puddle" so to speak reducing the mixture quality in the combustion chamber. Changing the intake run of the air will affect the velocity of the air, and that might be what RacnRay may have run into with the power loss.

Take a look at these new cars and trucks. On a lot of engines the intake runners lay on their sides to get the length to get air velocity required for fuel atomization and the correct filling of the combustion chamber. This has to do with camshaft lift and duration. Its a balanced system to try meeting all the different driving conditions.

Im not saying the 1700s could not be improved. Lord knows my sons 1600 Triumph Thunderbird will kick my 1700 Vaquero. Not quite apples and apples, but it did open my eyes to a difference.

Just 2 cents for thought.


Has anybody thought of turbo charging?
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Old 04-11-2014, 10:15 PM   #18
bigmc3210   bigmc3210 is offline
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Dlweeds I have a practically new Thunder kit #51010 I"ll sell you. $75.00 and I'll ship it to you free.
 
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Old 04-12-2014, 10:36 AM   #19
Dlweeds   Dlweeds is offline
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Dlweeds I have a practically new Thunder kit #51010 I"ll sell you. $75.00 and I'll ship it to you free.
Hmm. Got me interested. Mind if I ask why you're not keeping it?
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Old 04-12-2014, 10:51 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Snake Ranch View Post
I have not put a thermistor probe in the passage between the cylinders. But Ma Kaw might have. One thing to keep in mind is if the air temp gets to cool the fuel does not atomize properly. Having the air temp at a temperature to get the best atomization is what I hope they would strive for. If the fuel does not atomize properly it will drop out and "puddle" so to speak reducing the mixture quality in the combustion chamber. Changing the intake run of the air will affect the velocity of the air, and that might be what RacnRay may have run into with the power loss.

Take a look at these new cars and trucks. On a lot of engines the intake runners lay on their sides to get the length to get air velocity required for fuel atomization and the correct filling of the combustion chamber. This has to do with camshaft lift and duration. Its a balanced system to try meeting all the different driving conditions.

Im not saying the 1700s could not be improved. Lord knows my sons 1600 Triumph Thunderbird will kick my 1700 Vaquero. Not quite apples and apples, but it did open my eyes to a difference.

Just 2 cents for thought.


Has anybody thought of turbo charging?
Fuel atomization is important but not so much so on fuel injected engines and designs of intake systems pertaining to lengths have virtually no affect on fuel atomization.

On a carbureted engine fuel atomization is a factor and much more of a concern than on fi engines. The fuel is pulled out of the delivery orifices due to the difference in air pressure between the throttle bore and the float bowl(s). The fuel in the bowls is under atmospheric pressure and that pressure pushes the fuel into the lower pressure within the throttle bore. Intake velocity helps in breaking up the fuel droplets into a finer more combustible mixture as that mixture travels down the intake tract and into the cylinders.

On FI engines the fuel is being sprayed out of the injectors and usually over 40 psi. The newer injectors are multi-port, in other words to break up the fuel into a finer mist there are a multitude of extremely small orifices in the injector tip, some injectors have 12 orifices. These holes are so small I can only really see them with a magnifying glass, they are so small they have to be made by a laser! All this adds up to extremely good atomization.

If reducing the temp of the intake was a factor in the design of intakes then we would NOT see cool air systems on any vehicle, which is nowadays very common. My 2007 Tundra came from the factory with a cool air intake stock, taking the air from outside of the engine compartment in the fender well area. The length of modern intake systems is primarily to reduce intake noise, just check the Tundra forums for the guys who put cold air systems on their trucks, LOTS more power and noticeable increase in intake noise.

We also would NOT see RAM AIR systems on our sportbikes, ALL of the serious sportbikes are ram air, so the temp of the air reaching the engine is much cooler than most non ram air systems.

During my dyno runs and experimenting with opening up the left side air box we experienced what is called intake reversion". There are 2 events in intake system operation that cause reverse pressure waves that travel BACKWARDS in the intake tract. One is when the intake valve closes. What you have is like a rubber ball hitting a wall, it bounces back. So does the intake mixture in the form of a pressure wave. In a well designed engine this reverse wave ( there can be as many as 3!!!) has minimal negative affect on engine performance. Eventually those reverse waves will reverse themselves and travel BACK TOWARDS the cylinder and will benefit cylinder filling by helping to cram more mixture into the cylinder. On race engines proper cam selection and timing, port shapes and volumes and intake tract lengths can help achieve to fill the cylinder more than 100% capacity, in other words achieving an improvement in what is called volumetric efficiency, filling the cylinders beyond their actually capacity.

The other event is when exhaust reverse pressure waves coming back to the cylinder actually come into the cylinder during valve overlap (when the exhaust valve is close to being fully seated and closed, and the intake valve has started to open). This excessively strong and poorly timed exhaust reversion will actually push fresh mixture BACK OUT the intake tract which will reduce cylinder filling and also create big holes in the powerband. Proper exhaust reversion will aid in preventing fresh mixture from escaping out of the still open exhaust valve by acting as a "wall" so to speak. Fresh mixture in the exhaust means less in the cylinders but also increase emissions.

SO...what we experienced during the dyno runs was air coming OUT of that hole made in the left airbox. I could feel something weird during the run and my mechanic Mark was standing on the left side of the skoot and felt it also. Progressively taping the hole shut in kept bring the power back up, and was back to normal with the hole completely closed.

The air was packing into that channel connecting the 2 a/boxes, and since that channel can only handle so much air volume intake velocity was killed thus allowing those intake reversion pressure waves to kill the power. This can be very simply related to pouring a fluid into a funnel, pouring more than the funnel can flow causes the fluid to back up.

The final thing I learned is after completely sealing that left side hole, I removed the right side a/b cover and dynod the skoot again. Lots and I mean lots of air flow into the velocity stacks/throttle bodies, very cool air I might add and the skoot picked up 6.5 H.P. @ 5000 rpm, with the gains over the stock intake (with a K&N) starting at 3500rpm.

Anyways the modern FI engine has far superior fuel atomization than the older FI engines and certainly much better than carbureted engines, but intake air temp has little affect on fuel atomization, especially on an engine at normal operating temp.

RACNRAY
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Old 04-12-2014, 11:55 AM   #21
Snake Ranch   Snake Ranch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RACNRAY View Post
Fuel atomization is important but not so much so on fuel injected engines and designs of intake systems pertaining to lengths have virtually no affect on fuel atomization.

On a carbureted engine fuel atomization is a factor and much more of a concern than on fi engines. The fuel is pulled out of the delivery orifices due to the difference in air pressure between the throttle bore and the float bowl(s). The fuel in the bowls is under atmospheric pressure and that pressure pushes the fuel into the lower pressure within the throttle bore. Intake velocity helps in breaking up the fuel droplets into a finer more combustible mixture as that mixture travels down the intake tract and into the cylinders.

On FI engines the fuel is being sprayed out of the injectors and usually over 40 psi. The newer injectors are multi-port, in other words to break up the fuel into a finer mist there are a multitude of extremely small orifices in the injector tip, some injectors have 12 orifices. These holes are so small I can only really see them with a magnifying glass, they are so small they have to be made by a laser! All this adds up to extremely good atomization.

If reducing the temp of the intake was a factor in the design of intakes then we would NOT see cool air systems on any vehicle, which is nowadays very common. My 2007 Tundra came from the factory with a cool air intake stock, taking the air from outside of the engine compartment in the fender well area. The length of modern intake systems is primarily to reduce intake noise, just check the Tundra forums for the guys who put cold air systems on their trucks, LOTS more power and noticeable increase in intake noise.

We also would NOT see RAM AIR systems on our sportbikes, ALL of the serious sportbikes are ram air, so the temp of the air reaching the engine is much cooler than most non ram air systems.

During my dyno runs and experimenting with opening up the left side air box we experienced what is called intake reversion". There are 2 events in intake system operation that cause reverse pressure waves that travel BACKWARDS in the intake tract. One is when the intake valve closes. What you have is like a rubber ball hitting a wall, it bounces back. So does the intake mixture in the form of a pressure wave. In a well designed engine this reverse wave ( there can be as many as 3!!!) has minimal negative affect on engine performance. Eventually those reverse waves will reverse themselves and travel BACK TOWARDS the cylinder and will benefit cylinder filling by helping to cram more mixture into the cylinder. On race engines proper cam selection and timing, port shapes and volumes and intake tract lengths can help achieve to fill the cylinder more than 100% capacity, in other words achieving an improvement in what is called volumetric efficiency, filling the cylinders beyond their actually capacity.

The other event is when exhaust reverse pressure waves coming back to the cylinder actually come into the cylinder during valve overlap (when the exhaust valve is close to being fully seated and closed, and the intake valve has started to open). This excessively strong and poorly timed exhaust reversion will actually push fresh mixture BACK OUT the intake tract which will reduce cylinder filling and also create big holes in the powerband. Proper exhaust reversion will aid in preventing fresh mixture from escaping out of the still open exhaust valve by acting as a "wall" so to speak. Fresh mixture in the exhaust means less in the cylinders but also increase emissions.

SO...what we experienced during the dyno runs was air coming OUT of that hole made in the left airbox. I could feel something weird during the run and my mechanic Mark was standing on the left side of the skoot and felt it also. Progressively taping the hole shut in kept bring the power back up, and was back to normal with the hole completely closed.

The air was packing into that channel connecting the 2 a/boxes, and since that channel can only handle so much air volume intake velocity was killed thus allowing those intake reversion pressure waves to kill the power. This can be very simply related to pouring a fluid into a funnel, pouring more than the funnel can flow causes the fluid to back up.

The final thing I learned is after completely sealing that left side hole, I removed the right side a/b cover and dynod the skoot again. Lots and I mean lots of air flow into the velocity stacks/throttle bodies, very cool air I might add and the skoot picked up 6.5 H.P. @ 5000 rpm, with the gains over the stock intake (with a K&N) starting at 3500rpm.

Anyways the modern FI engine has far superior fuel atomization than the older FI engines and certainly much better than carbureted engines, but intake air temp has little affect on fuel atomization, especially on an engine at normal operating temp.

RACNRAY
I would like to thank you for taking the time to provide a good explanation. I guess I kinda dated myself. This is the first FI bike I have owned. My other bikes have been carbed.
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Old 04-16-2014, 09:41 PM   #22
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Hoping that the snow will melt and I can get in the wind. In the meantime catching up on the forum. Once again Ray the time and thought that you put into your explanations is deeply appreciated.

Thanks brother!!
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Old 04-16-2014, 11:35 PM   #23
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..After all the calculations are written down..maneuvered and sorted out !

Cooler Air...is more 'dense" than warm air..And has more oxygen in it ! ....and that when combusted with gasoline, (@ correct mixture ratio's) is..where the power comes from...

Thus "Ram Air Effect". Super Charged Air Induction...Turbo Charged Induction, tho warmed by mechanical compression as its compressed ..(Adding Intercoolers, help's cool the air)..is far more Oxygen Rich..and produces more power...

On our Big Assed Bike's..a little "Cooling Ram Air"..can help, but cracputers dont always like to perform in an air flow they were not designed to operate in ! (and the design engineered..systems, dictated by smog/noise reg's are no help either)

On Carb'ed Bike's...you can usually "tune it in"... ! ?
 
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Old 04-17-2014, 06:46 PM   #24
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Over the years I've read plenty about the big temperature rise as the intake air flows through that channel between the cylinders, so a while ago I instrumented my bike with three thermocouples. One taped under the left turn signal to measure ambient air temp, one mounted at the air box inlet under the fuel tank, and one inside the right air box directly in front of the throttle body inlet.
I rode it on a hot day, about 85F, in traffic and at highway speeds and watched the readout as I rode along. In stop&go traffic the engine was hot enough that the cooling fan was running steady and air box inlet and throttle body inlet both read 5 to 8 degrees higher than ambient, but once the bike was moving at anything more than 30 mph all three temperatures were the same.
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Old 04-17-2014, 09:13 PM   #25
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Over the years I've read plenty about the big temperature rise as the intake air flows through that channel between the cylinders, so a while ago I instrumented my bike with three thermocouples. One taped under the left turn signal to measure ambient air temp, one mounted at the air box inlet under the fuel tank, and one inside the right air box directly in front of the throttle body inlet.
I rode it on a hot day, about 85F, in traffic and at highway speeds and watched the readout as I rode along. In stop&go traffic the engine was hot enough that the cooling fan was running steady and air box inlet and throttle body inlet both read 5 to 8 degrees higher than ambient, but once the bike was moving at anything more than 30 mph all three temperatures were the same.
Now that is real information we all can use,especially if you live in a cooler climate and still run a stock air intake,like myself.I never felt the Thunder air kit gave me anymore power,just a lot of noise,even though I had a PCV and cobra pipes also.I have also wrapped my stock air box between the cylinders with dyna mat to help insulate it from cylinder heat some what.
I would assume though that in the southern states there is proably a lot more benefit to an air kit due to hot ambient temps.
 
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Old 04-18-2014, 12:07 PM   #26
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