Throttle Balance adjustment

[GodOfDirt]

Is there a procedure anywhere on the proper adjustment of the Idle air adjustment screws on the throttle body? I can not find any information on these any where.

[Ken Vega]

Originally Posted by GodOfDirt

Is there a procedure anywhere on the proper adjustment of the Idle air adjustment screws on the throttle body? I can not find any information on these any where.

Using the S on the throttle side of controlwhen the bike is fully warmed you hold tye button for 3 or so seconds, you will see the time only appear on the display, hit the button quick again and you will see the adjustment to set whether you want the read out to be in Kilometers or Miles, finally hit the buton a 3rd time and you will see idle. You can raise or lower the idle by 100 rpm in increments of 50 rpm.

If you are talking about adjusting Air /Fuel like on a carbed bike, there is no adjustment. The bike is fuel injected and ECU controlled, therefore you would need a fuel processor like the Power Commander 5 to make adjustments for Air Fuel mix.

[dlars]

Originally Posted by GodOfDirt

Is there a procedure anywhere on the proper adjustment of the Idle air adjustment screws on the throttle body? I can not find any information on these any where.

I see in your profile that you're riding a 1700 nomad. In that case the procedure described by Ken Vega is the proper way....once it's warmed up that is. If you don't have an owners manual or a service manual available, you can always do a search as a few sites have them posted so you can view them online.

[RACNRAY]

Originally Posted by GodOfDirt

Is there a procedure anywhere on the proper adjustment of the Idle air adjustment screws on the throttle body? I can not find any information on these any where.

I believe what he is referring to are the air bleed screws on top of the throttle body above each bore. They can be seen with the right side a/box off.

I looked into these and what they did back in 2011 when I had my throttle bodies off but dang I can't remember what I found out bout them. I do remember mine would not turn easily so I left them alone.

RACNRAY

[GodOfDirt]

I've tried that, and it does idle up. however i'm having some issues witht he bike. let me detail my woes.

New bike, '14 1700 nomad 3 miles on it when i brought it home. behaved myself during break in and took to dealer to have first service done, then i started to get picky i guess(might be worth mentioning my other ride is a BMW R1100RT i brought back from the dead). my first long ride/highway ride was not very good.

On interstate, the bike had no power in 5th or 6th. could not use cruze @ 65 in 5th, bike just felt like is was goin to die, not to mention the gas milage was reading around 29-31.

Got to a buddy's house and messed around on the net could not find much besides spend money and install devices. Not really what i want to hear on new bike or while 200 miles from the house.

messed around with idle speed(no tach on bike only calibrated ear) and could tell a difference - lowered (really bad sounding full of knocks) + raised idle. Left it set to max and started back home.bike was much better. now power in 5th (6th still stumbled) and MPG reading around 34-35. but made it home.

Checked the throttle body for leaks around orings and found the three bolts a little loose. tightened and bike got a little better. while every thing was off i noticed the bypass adjustment screws which i am very familiar with since i've done all my own "SYNC""ing on the BMW. Thought same principle may apply here. thats were i was this morning. i decided to hook up my manometer and just check balance using the capped off ports at the rear of the throttle.

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Discovered the rear cylinder was pulling more vacuum, so i tweaked it and the bike seams to love it. test ride seamed much more powerful and mpg read 37-38. going to try a much longer highway run now and will post those results.

now i just need to fix the wander when riding solo......

[Ken Vega]

Mpg and engine smootheness will improve when you log more miles. Mine seemed to feel fully loosened up at about 4500 miles. Now at 7200 miles she is smoothe as butter, especially after changing to Synthetic oil and running the current map in my PCV. Adding a little timing advance has gone a long way.

[Sabre-t]

Wow! No wonder it was running so bad with an imbalance like that. Balancing carbed engines is a fact of lift. I wasn't sure if there was any need on FI, but apparently there is. I'm glad I kept my homemade manometer when I got the Voyager.

Glad you found the problem and thanks for posting it.

[GodOfDirt]

Both screws were turned full stop from factory. I really wanted to check idle speed but my timing light would not pick up accurately.

the two ports on the back of the TB that are plugged work perfect for this test. I made 6" extension hoses so i could access them easier.

I opened both up slightly 1/8 of a turn off bottom and then balanced at idle. I let the bike cool down and started it again to make sure it wouldn't have issues. Once it warmed up, I watched it while running up the RPMs. was slightly off balance on the high side (3/4 throttle+) but can not adjust that with out modification to the butterflies since they are sing shaft.

I'm looking on EBAY for a pull off throttle body so i can test some theories on sensor positions. I'm surprised KAWA only answer for signal out of range is replacement of the entire TB, and the range is pretty wide open IMO.

[ponch]

Originally Posted by GodOfDirt

I've tried that, and it does idle up. however i'm having some issues witht he bike. let me detail my woes.

New bike, '14 1700 nomad 3 miles on it when i brought it home. behaved myself during break in and took to dealer to have first service done, then i started to get picky i guess(might be worth mentioning my other ride is a BMW R1100RT i brought back from the dead). my first long ride/highway ride was not very good.

On interstate, the bike had no power in 5th or 6th. could not use cruze @ 65 in 5th, bike just felt like is was goin to die, not to mention the gas milage was reading around 29-31.

Got to a buddy's house and messed around on the net could not find much besides spend money and install devices. Not really what i want to hear on new bike or while 200 miles from the house.

messed around with idle speed(no tach on bike only calibrated ear) and could tell a difference - lowered (really bad sounding full of knocks) + raised idle. Left it set to max and started back home.bike was much better. now power in 5th (6th still stumbled) and MPG reading around 34-35. but made it home.

Checked the throttle body for leaks around orings and found the three bolts a little loose. tightened and bike got a little better. while every thing was off i noticed the bypass adjustment screws which i am very familiar with since i've done all my own "SYNC""ing on the BMW. Thought same principle may apply here. thats were i was this morning. i decided to hook up my manometer and just check balance using the capped off ports at the rear of the throttle.

Attachment 9908

Attachment 9909

Attachment 9910

Discovered the rear cylinder was pulling more vacuum, so i tweaked it and the bike seams to love it. test ride seamed much more powerful and mpg read 37-38. going to try a much longer highway run now and will post those results.

now i just need to fix the wander when riding solo......

Never touch the air adjust screws on a beemer. They are set from the factory and should be left alone, at least with mine. The throttle cables can be adjusted to sync the throttle bodies and should be every 24 or 30 thousand miles, but only after a good valve adjustment. Insofar as the Vaquero goes, I'd be reluctant to mess with the throttle body. The idle air control solenoids should take care of the idle and if the throttle body is like a 1600's, the blades aren't going to be appreciably out of sync, or shouldn't be. A boxer engine or a V-Twin with separate throttle bodies, sure, if they have cables. Throttle by wire like on the new water cooled RTs don't require throttle syncing anymore. That's a real plus. I'd be surprised (or may be I shouldn't?) if the throttle blades on the 1700 were out that much and even so, it's something you'd notice more at idle. My RT has stepper motors (IAC solenoids) that control idle and sync isn't messed with at idle. Usually it's checked at 2000/3000/4000 rpm for consistency. Lots of beemer owners use this: http://www.twinmax.co.uk/

[ponch]

Originally Posted by GodOfDirt

I've tried that, and it does idle up. however i'm having some issues witht he bike. let me detail my woes.

New bike, '14 1700 nomad 3 miles on it when i brought it home. behaved myself during break in and took to dealer to have first service done, then i started to get picky i guess(might be worth mentioning my other ride is a BMW R1100RT i brought back from the dead). my first long ride/highway ride was not very good.

On interstate, the bike had no power in 5th or 6th. could not use cruze @ 65 in 5th, bike just felt like is was goin to die, not to mention the gas milage was reading around 29-31.

Got to a buddy's house and messed around on the net could not find much besides spend money and install devices. Not really what i want to hear on new bike or while 200 miles from the house.

messed around with idle speed(no tach on bike only calibrated ear) and could tell a difference - lowered (really bad sounding full of knocks) + raised idle. Left it set to max and started back home.bike was much better. now power in 5th (6th still stumbled) and MPG reading around 34-35. but made it home.

Checked the throttle body for leaks around orings and found the three bolts a little loose. tightened and bike got a little better. while every thing was off i noticed the bypass adjustment screws which i am very familiar with since i've done all my own "SYNC""ing on the BMW. Thought same principle may apply here. thats were i was this morning. i decided to hook up my manometer and just check balance using the capped off ports at the rear of the throttle.

Attachment 9908

Attachment 9909

Attachment 9910

Discovered the rear cylinder was pulling more vacuum, so i tweaked it and the bike seams to love it. test ride seamed much more powerful and mpg read 37-38. going to try a much longer highway run now and will post those results.

now i just need to fix the wander when riding solo......

Another thing is that the 1700 is known for a leaky throttle body. Ask Racing Ray about it. Thunder MFG makes a gasket for it. http://www.thundermfg.com/store/inde...t_detail&p=472

[GodOfDirt]

BMW Oilhead motors can be adjusted. every one has been fighting surging and runability issues without any help from BMW. look for zero-zero adjustments. they are not BMW sanctioned adjustments.

The system on my nomad looks to be an open loop FI system. this in reality is nothing more than an electric carb. there is no feed back from the output of the system besides RPM, and that can be modified in several ways. in order for the system to work without feedback, i.e. O2 sensor, the process must assume all inputs are true to value. also in this system there are only two point of control, fuel and throttle position.

Throttle position most likely follows the accelerator position off idle while monitoring intake pressure(currently only hooked up to the rear port) and while at idle seeks out a set point based on throttle plate position and rpm feed back.

Fuel will follow a predetermined logarithm following intake pressure and throttle position. with out feed back, all this works on the assumption that 2.3 volts on throttle position sensor = throttle plates at 50%. if sensor is out of adjustment then the system breaks down.

This is where mass production adds in tolerances. and while in tolerance may run ok, its not ideal.

[ponch]

Originally Posted by GodOfDirt

BMW Oilhead motors can be adjusted. every one has been fighting surging and runability issues without any help from BMW. look for zero-zero adjustments. they are not BMW sanctioned adjustments.

The system on my nomad looks to be an open loop FI system. this in reality is nothing more than an electric carb. there is no feed back from the output of the system besides RPM, and that can be modified in several ways. in order for the system to work without feedback, i.e. O2 sensor, the process must assume all inputs are true to value. also in this system there are only two point of control, fuel and throttle position.

Throttle position most likely follows the accelerator position off idle while monitoring intake pressure(currently only hooked up to the rear port) and while at idle seeks out a set point based on throttle plate position and rpm feed back.

Fuel will follow a predetermined logarithm following intake pressure and throttle position. with out feed back, all this works on the assumption that 2.3 volts on throttle position sensor = throttle plates at 50%. if sensor is out of adjustment then the system breaks down.

This is where mass production adds in tolerances. and while in tolerance may run ok, its not ideal.

I own a hexhead, so it might be different, but on that, messing with the screws is verboten. Still, a good valve adjustment should be done before any throttle syncing or adjustments. It also has two O2 sensors which are final arbiter of the F/A mixture. Try to change the inlet air temp sensor and it will adapt around it or almost anything else except an O2 spoofer or a PC V. The PC V isn't worth it, but the O2 spoofer will smooth the idle a bit. The BMW fix for the surging was dual plugs, but it's still very lean at and off idle. The XiED fixes that. Some have even gone with wide band sensors too, but that's something else...SO, whereas my Nomad would ping with anything less than 91 octane, the RT will not, but will lose some power. You'd think Kawasaki could build an engine with 9:1 compression that can run on 87.

[RACNRAY]

Although Kawi recommends 90 octane many of us have found the engines run better with 89. What we have down here is 87/89/93 and not only with the 1700's but many sportbikes (most with 12-1 c.r.) run better with 89 than with 93. The feedback I get from 1700 owners (from around the country) have positive results when they have switched from the higher octane to 89. Better performance, mpg and many report less decel popping on skoots with that occurring.

1700's with exhaust mods, a good BAK and proper FI tuning can run 87 with no problems. The 1700 is a mild engine, 9.5-1 c.r., a good spark plug design (although Kawi should of stayed with dual plug heads like on the 1500/1600).

In the first few thousand miles I experimented with octane, first runnin 93. On the first tank of 89 the engine ran noticeable smoother, a tiny bit better throttle response and about 4 tenths better mpg. Ran 89 for awhile then switched to 87. No pinging and no change in anything other than saving some $$$ at the pump.

RACNRAY

[ponch]

Originally Posted by RACNRAY

Although Kawi recommends 90 octane many of us have found the engines run better with 89. What we have down here is 87/89/93 and not only with the 1700's but many sportbikes (most with 12-1 c.r.) run better with 89 than with 93. The feedback I get from 1700 owners (from around the country) have positive results when they have switched from the higher octane to 89. Better performance, mpg and many report less decel popping on skoots with that occurring.

1700's with exhaust mods, a good BAK and proper FI tuning can run 87 with no problems. The 1700 is a mild engine, 9.5-1 c.r., a good spark plug design (although Kawi should of stayed with dual plug heads like on the 1500/1600).

In the first few thousand miles I experimented with octane, first runnin 93. On the first tank of 89 the engine ran noticeable smoother, a tiny bit better throttle response and about 4 tenths better mpg. Ran 89 for awhile then switched to 87. No pinging and no change in anything other than saving some $$$ at the pump.

RACNRAY

With higher compression engines, it all depends. I didn't experience any ping in my RT until I moved to AZ. The gas here is crap. My bike does have a knock sensor and will retard timing etc to adjust to octane. Minimum recommended is 89 AKI, but better performance will be had with 93. I've run on 87 because I had to and it ran, but at a lower performance level. In my previous statement, I was talking about the 1600. The FI is rudimentary on it and with a proper closed loop system it could run on dog piss, but such is not the case. You are right though, the 1700 is a mild engine too, like the 1600 in that respect. It should be able to run 87 out of the box.

[otter]

Originally Posted by RACNRAY

Although Kawi recommends 90 octane many of us have found the engines run better with 89. What we have down here is 87/89/93 and not only with the 1700's but many sportbikes (most with 12-1 c.r.) run better with 89 than with 93. The feedback I get from 1700 owners (from around the country) have positive results when they have switched from the higher octane to 89. Better performance, mpg and many report less decel popping on skoots with that occurring.

1700's with exhaust mods, a good BAK and proper FI tuning can run 87 with no problems. The 1700 is a mild engine, 9.5-1 c.r., a good spark plug design (although Kawi should of stayed with dual plug heads like on the 1500/1600).

In the first few thousand miles I experimented with octane, first runnin 93. On the first tank of 89 the engine ran noticeable smoother, a tiny bit better throttle response and about 4 tenths better mpg. Ran 89 for awhile then switched to 87. No pinging and no change in anything other than saving some $$$ at the pump.

RACNRAY

I'd be hesitant in doing that. My Canadian bike had a nice sticker beside the fuel cap: 91 Octane only, or "severe engine damage will result". Do our 1700s not have a knock sensor?