Group Ride Discipline

One of the things that has been bantered around behind the scenes since the end of the Western Rally is the subject of discipline on a group ride. I'm no expert on the subject and offhand, I don't have a good resource that describes it in detail, but there are a couple things we did absolutely wrong, and several we could have done better.

One of the things I noticed was that in a group, the people leading must make a conscious effort to ride slower than they normally would alone. This is particularly so when you have a large group, or a group which has never ridden together, or a mixed group with people of different skill levels, or on different bikes, or with passengers.

There needs to be communication between the ride leader and the sweep rider so that maneuvers can be made safely, the group is not split up, and so that people are not left behind. I think that if the group is large enough, or the terrain variable enough that the leader and sweep are not in visual communication range, they should probably have either radio communication or designated intermediaries to relay signals.

My biggest personal problem on our group ride was that we never got to have lunch as a group. The original plan called for lunch at a certain location, and at some point those plans changed. I didn't find out about it until it was essentially lunch time. While missing a meal was probably a blessing to me (being somewhat overweight myself, I carry considerable "reserve capacity") for some other folks it was a real inconvenience. This was something we really needed to plan out better before the ride began.

Anyhow, the subject of formation riding is one I wouldn't try to lecture anybody on; yet I was hoping somebody here had a definitive guide to the subject they could share.

[blowndodge]

My plan is if your following me I twist the throttle to the stops and try to ditch you!!!!

[cactusjack]

It's interesting you mention this. I ride in groups frequently, usually large groups of 30+ bikes. It was obvious that some at the Western Rally do not. Not that that's a bad thing, but you have to consider everyone when riding in groups.

As one of the co-leaders, I'll accept some reponsibility for this, even though I was not leading or acting as sweeper for the ride. It happened on my watch nonetheless.

Yes, the plans did change which caught me by surprise as well. We left earlier than planned, so I had no time for breakfast and was hoping to eat lunch as scheduled. At the Shell station in Springdale, we fractured into multiple groups, some went with Dan on the side trip, others went back to Mesquite. I ended up sharing a pizza in a lounge at the Oasis with the Hooligans, and yes...drinking BEER

Wolfman and I put some considerable time into putting together the itinerary. I don't know if there were too many chiefs or what, but the itinerary wasn't followed very closely. People were passing around the wrong information, etc. Again, mea culpa.

We'll learn from this experience and improve things for the next rally. I don't know who will be in charge of it but I hope they use this first rally as a learning experience.

Originally Posted by cactusjack

It's interesting you mention this. I ride in groups frequently, usually large groups of 30+ bikes. It was obvious that some at the Western Rally do not.

I'm definately one of the "do nots". When I ride in groups it's usually small groups of 3 to 6 bikes. I've only ridden in a really large group twice.

But it's easy to see that the larger the group the less it can sustain attitudes like "...if your following me I twist the throttle to the stops and try to ditch you..."

[cactusjack]

Some of the bigger group rides I go on have multiple outriders that take over as leader or road captain if the group gets split up at a light, for example.

When riding in a group, if you're the lead bike, you don't just twist the throttle and hope everyone else keeps up with you.

Oh well, like I said, we learn from such things.

[unwind2]

Good conversation...something else to keep in mind ....if a group is out and for some reason lunch may be skipped it may have serious affects if you have a diabetic in the group or hypoglycemic person.

[Idaho]

Woulda, coulda, shoulda. It would have been nice to sit down with the group for a mid-day meal. Having said that I really did not give a rip at the time becasue I'm so easy to please. We probably should have thought about the needs of folks who need to eat regularly to maintain blood sugar levels. Especially in the heat that we experienced.

As to CQ's comment about the ride speed, I thought that Wolfman did a great job and Dan does not understand the concept at all. Not meant as a critisism just an observation of fact. I was at the front of the pack on the interstate so did not experience the yo-yo effect that some of you probably did at the end of the formation. If there was that much accordion effect going on then a leader in mid pack should have felt comfortable with slowing down and leading the slower group at a more consistent speed. Part of our problem was that very few people actually knew where we were going, not so much were but how to get there. Unfamiliar territory got us. I know that Spence was very concerned with being the leader and he tried to keep a constant speed.

All in all, I had a great time. CJ and WM, thank you.

[ringadingh]

I think group riding boils down to the experience of the people in the group. I have been on some where its an easy pleasant smooth flowing group that travel as one unit for the most part, and other times with groups where Im on the brakes and throttle constantly. Everybody has to learn how, but sometimes certain locations arn't very accepting to novices in group rides. Smaller groups of 6-10 bikes are easier to deal with, especially when it comes to stopping for lunch and fuel breaks.

[dantama]

Originally Posted by Idaho (High Plains Drifter)

As to CQ's comment about the ride speed, I thought that Wolfman did a great job and Dan does not understand the concept at all.

Perhaps you are right, and I don't understand the concept. I will take responsibility for not knowing.

What I did do though, was never go over the speed limit in any of the zones 30's 40's and 50's. Never passed other cars that would break us up, and the first 1/2 of the group got stretched out ahead (but with no cars in between).

I pulled over and waited, reformed, never went over the speed limit, and withing a mile we were stretched out into the same two groups.

Waited again, and decided to put the slow riders in the front. That still didn't work as some were going under 25mph. Myself and (Wanderer?) asked if the slow ones minded if we went on ahead, and they didn't.

I will take responsibility for not knowing how to lead a group that one half will go the speed limit, and the other half won't even in a 30mph zone with no other traffic. I tried and failed by putting the slow riders in the front.

I wondered how the same riders stayed up with Wolfman all day getting from Mesquite to Zions, but then couldn't keep up at 30mph?

I was baffled on how to do it, but still had a good time. :)

Originally Posted by caddmannq

One of the things that has been bantered around behind the scenes since the end of the Western Rally is the subject of discipline on a group ride. I'm no expert on the subject and offhand, I don't have a good resource that describes it in detail, but there are a couple things we did absolutely wrong, and several we could have done better.

One of the things I noticed was that in a group, the people leading must make a conscious effort to ride slower than they normally would alone. This is particularly so when you have a large group, or a group which has never ridden together, or a mixed group with people of different skill levels, or on different bikes, or with passengers.

There needs to be communication between the ride leader and the sweep rider so that maneuvers can be made safely, the group is not split up, and so that people are not left behind. I think that if the group is large enough, or the terrain variable enough that the leader and sweep are not in visual communication range, they should probably have either radio communication or designated intermediaries to relay signals.

My biggest personal problem on our group ride was that we never got to have lunch as a group. The original plan called for lunch at a certain location, and at some point those plans changed. I didn't find out about it until it was essentially lunch time. While missing a meal was probably a blessing to me (being somewhat overweight myself, I carry considerable "reserve capacity") for some other folks it was a real inconvenience. This was something we really needed to plan out better before the ride began.

Anyhow, the subject of formation riding is one I wouldn't try to lecture anybody on; yet I was hoping somebody here had a definitive guide to the subject they could share.

Never miss a meal Cadd..... it slows your metablolism!!


As for riding in a group..... this is borrowed from Southern Cruisers:

http://www.scrc-sd.org/riderrules.htm


What might be appropriate next ride is to break off into 2 groups..... one group that wants to drag floorboards, and one that wants to sightsee.... (fast and slow group)

Anyway, I think all in all it worked out fairly well....

[blowndodge]

Am I the only one that didn't really care about "time frames"? I thought the big group ride was fun and it mattered not one bit, if, when, how or why we stopped for food or drinks. The thought that I was missing a meal never entered my mind whatsoever.

I was too damn happy riding with my KawaNOW memebers. I was clueless if there were behind the scene grumblings about itinerary. If I'm the one that ever complains that "I'm hungry and why aren't we stopping" I should consider riding alone.

I thought we did good for a large group thats never rode with each other and find this reflective negativity on how to ride in a group "armchair quarterbacking". I had a blast and never thought about anything else.

Except beer.

[dantama]

I put some articles on group riding in the safety formum

Originally Posted by Blowndodge "Darksider"

Am I the only one that didn't really care about "time frames"? I thought the big group ride was fun and it mattered not one bit, if, when, how or why we stopped for food or drinks. The thought that I was missing a meal never entered my mind whatsoever.

I was too damn happy riding with my KawaNOW memebers. I was clueless if there were behind the scene grumblings about itinerary. If I'm the one that ever complains that "I'm hungry and why aren't we stopping" I should consider riding alone.

I thought we did good for a large group thats never rode with each other and find this reflective negativity on how to ride in a group "armchair quarterbacking". I had a blast and never thought about anything else.

Except beer.

I don't think ANYONE is complaining..... we all had a wonderful time!!! I enjoyed every minute of it....... even the 115 degree pain!!! lol

A little constructive criticism is always welcome in retrospect to make the next get- together even better!!!

I'm hungry!

[cactusjack]

I don't think anyone is complaining. We all had a good time, we all arrived back in Mesquite safe and sound. That's what matters.

To me, this discussion is an examination of things to work on for next time. Speaking for myself, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular. As far as I'm concerned, I'm as much to blame as anyone else. We did have a plan for the ride, and it didn't get followed, for whatever reason. A lot of it probably had to do with the heat.

When riding in a group, especially a large group, there is a saying - "ride your own ride". This means that each rider is responsible for his/her own safety and that you aren't pressured by the group to ride faster or more aggressive than you're comfortable with. It's up to you if you try to squeak through that red light and want to risk a ticket. If you aren't comfortable taking canyon curves at the posted speed limit, don't.

I ride with a couple of large local groups. It's not uncommon for 50 bikes to show up for a popular ride. If you've never ridden in a large pack like that, it can be eye-opening. Just the logistics of moving that many machines and people in and out of a gas station or parking lot is staggering. Sometimes, things just click and the whole group moves as one. Other times, it becomes a clusterf***. It just depends on who is riding that day. You need to develop a keen sense of situational awareness and you have got to know who's ahead, to the sides, and behind you at all times.

If half of the group gets left at a light, the other half slows or stops and waits for them to rejoin down the road. I don't care where you're going or how badly you want to get there, you don't break up the group. That's why it's called a group ride and not a solo or individual ride. If a member of the group has a problem, whether mechanical, medical, or whatever - they should never, ever be left alone. Someone always stays with them. Always.

Like they said in Top Gun, "you never leave your wing man".

[blowndodge]

Understood. It just hit me like an after thought lecture on what we did wrong. I'm still basking in the glory of the event. To me riding is always a tentative event, not a structured activity. I never know where I will stop for gas or how far I might ride on any given day. That's why I ride. The mentality of traveling on a bike as opposed to a cage is vastly different.

Somehow in a car, time seems to be the issue. Thats why I like riding a bike instead. It's not when I get there, it's how I got there. Two totally different mindsets.

Originally we were suppose to ride all the way through Zion and when we got there Dan suggested that we don't with Spencer and that was good with me. These guys knew the area better than I. I'm just along for the ride. that's why this subject seemed to be moot to me.

With dan the offroad man, spence, the high speed 100 mph youngin, Mark the take your time kind of rider your never going to be able to pull of a error free group ride.

Could we have split up into different groups? Sure. It's not like we had a whole week to ride together. We only rode one day together so we did it in one big group.

The beginning of this thread stated "there are a couple things we did absolutely wrong"

Really? I didn't notice it....

"My biggest personal problem..." Was is really a personal problem thing?

These statements weren't very positive considering the facts I stated.


Yes we can improve and we will. We did great for a first time event. I thought we did absolutely great!!