Thoughts on pinging

[dank]

Bd, you are way beyond me in these things, so I'm sure you have it worked out. I only mentioned the boiling point elevation because even though the fan comes on and prevents a temperature spike high enough to boil water/antifreeze mixture, the fact that it kicks in at 212 doesn't mean the temp can't go above 212. It just doesn't go above the temp at which the mixture, taking pressure into account, would boil. You are talking about a change that will decrease that boil-over temperature. Since blackbody radiation varies as the cube of the temperature differential, and that augmented by the fan is what you are relying on in moving heat from the radiator at a stop, I would be concerned about any change that significantly lessens the boiling point of the solution since the higher heat radiation rate at higher temperatures may be part of what makes the system function as a whole. Probably an insignificant concern.

Just wanted to explain why I made the earlier comment. I bow to your greater understanding of these systems and look forward to learning the results. It will be great if it solves the problem.

[bobzinger]

During the winter months I can run mid-grade gas with no pinging...but if it gets over 95deg, which is often in California...I still get pinging. No, I don't lug my engine!
I added a TFI and went with plugs that are 2 steps colder and it helped stop 98% of the pinging except on 100+ days.

Interesting Note: I was using a Lucas Fuel treatment to keep my engine clean about every 4 tanks. The bike ran great, but I noticed that it pinged a little more with the additive. I thought I read somewhere that some fuel treatments burn hotter to help cleaning action. ??? So now I wonder about Techtron and other additives found in gas at the pump. Does it make engines run hotter?

http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductD...egoryCode=3233

[blowndodge]

No worries dank. I know why you think that and those are/were a concern of mine.

Couple of examples using your analogy. If I'm at a stop and the coolant rised to 212 the fan kicks on and about a minute later it's off. Gives rise that the temp is now below 212 true?

This is only at a stanstill. I've never come to a stop with the fan running already. If the 75/25 mixture provides boil over protection to 235F then when would my Nomad ever get that hot. Like I stated above, the hottest times are in summer at a stop. Max temps of 212 are reached and the fan kicks on.

Two things else to think about. If the weaker mixture does indeed run cooler that it will take more stops or higher summer heat to bring this mixture to 212 no?? So on one hand I've lowered the coolant temps by thinning the mixture. BTW there is no question that 75/25 cools better than 50/50. thats not open for debate. It is and it does cool better. The only reason I'm putting 25% in is to aid on corrosion protection (remember not a big issue in aluminum) and to raise the boil over point beyond the temp than my fan will bring it down anyway. If the fan kicks on at 212, the engine is not going to ever see 235F

If my motor sees 212 at 75/25 then it would have got there much sooner with 50/50. So as you pointed out 50/50 does raise the boil over point but my coolant system is design never to let the coolant get much above 212. Remember 212 stuck in traffic 100 degrees day the fan kicks on then off so the coolant temp drops. the only scenario that I can see from what you've pointed out is that the fan kicks on and stays on for a half hour and the temps keeps climbing to 235 and beyond? I doubt anybody has had that happen.

[blowndodge]

Also if I had faith that Makaw designed the system to work as a whole I would rethink this. since our bikes have ECM's and ping and have idle issues at times doesn't lead me to put much stock in the disigned as a whole theory. I think the cooling system was designed poorly as the ECM was programmed poorly. But i still love my Nomad!!!!!

[dank]

Admittedly you are right. Not having had mine go on but once I didn't realize yours is going on and right back off. The way people were talking about the fans going on I thought they were staying on.

[blowndodge]

It's always for just a minute. Sometimes even when I shut the bike off it comes on 2 seconds later for about 20 seconds. the fan does its job well, I just wish the radiator did a better job without the fan.

[jussmatt]

Interesting thread BD. Being down here in Hot Houston... I'm looking forward to your findings!! I get pinging most of the time...and I run 92/93oct gas... I've used the seafoam a couple of times...and really didn't see any difference. Your thoughts on this are pretty good and like most on here, probably nothing that I would have considerded....so good luck and keep us informed!

[blowndodge]

Thanks Matt. Win or lose it's worth a try....good ol' American Ingenuity at work in the Garage!!!

[jussmatt]

Amen Brother!! I trust that more than most places!!!

My bike is a 1500 FI, but I have pinging, and I think the issues are the same, if perhaps less severe (and I say perhaps as my bike could be made to ping horribly when I first bought it new. )

Like BD, I live at fairly low altitude (about 300 ft. above sea level) and in the central California desert where it is normal for me to ride 10 miles across town stop & go in 100^oF+ weather 5 days a week and more. I run 91 octane (which is pi$$water IMHO as I remember buying 106 octane Sunoco back in the day, but it's the best they sell here.)

After doing several things that made my bike run a bit cooler (air kit/Baggers/TFI/coasters) I did notice a big reduction in pinging, but it is still all too easy to make the bike ping once I'm out in seriously hot traffic. I run Honda ProCool and the standard thermostat with no other mods. I hadn't considered thinning the coolant with distilled water but I think I will, and I think it may help a little. I hadn't thought about removing the thermostat. I know that some engines did run hotter with the thermostat out, but remember that the Nomad has functional fins, and those provide some cooling when you're actually moving at a good speed. Car engines don't have that.

Another thing I'm considering is something I've seen Goldwing riders do, and that is add more fans to the radiator. Typically they use 12 volt computer fans, and I think I could easily sneak 4 of them around the stock fan on the Nomad's radiator. Would this help? I don't know. My fan does come on regularly in summer traffic, and also when I shut it off. An offshoot of the rapidly opening thermostat is that too rapid coolant flow doesn't allow the fan sensor to heat up quick enough, delaying fan operation. I've never stuck a thermometer on the system, but when my fan kicks on at s stoplight my bike turns into a 100,000 watt hair dryer, so I know it's getting hot.

Another thing I might try, though I do have a TFI, is to add the resistor mod on a thumb switch I can activate only in pinging situations. I don't know if that would help much. I've adjusted the TFI up to where I know the bike was running super rich, and I could still make it ping.

In my mind, what may really need to happen is a change of ignition timing, and that's something that is non-adjustable. In theory at least. I know the timing pickups are fixed in position relative to the engine case, but I haven't looked at them physically. There may be a tiny bit of slop in the assembly, which might just allow for a little bit of adjustment if one was very serious about setting this up. Factory timing might vary slightly because of manufacturing tolerances, leading to the fact that some bikes ping noticibly worse than others.

[blowndodge]

caddmannQ. I've considered the time issue as well. Being of fixed variety and is non adjustable one would have to get a "piggy back" timing device through the aftermarket industry. I believe the fully programmable PCIII's have them at addtional costs. I talked with a gentleman at my bike shop and he said they can overide the timing with it.

OK, I haven't heard that was possible on a Nomad yet. But I'm still not convinced one couldn't alter the static timing a bit, and I'll bet there is a degree of difference between various bikes from the factory.

Of course, just altering static timing a degree or two may not help enough.

[blowndodge]

The only non encouraging thing is that the timing on the Nomad is real mild:

5 degrees initial at 950 rps and 25 degrees at 4500 rpms. Can't see that the timing is very steep on this motor. 5 initial degrees? that's childs play!!!

Yes, very mild.

BTW, If your bike can turn 950 rps I'd like to buy it.

Also: pinging can occur if there's not enough advance (if I'm not mistaken.) The mix explodes before the plugs fire, never giving it a chance to actually burn.