Thoughts on pinging

[blowndodge]

Ol' BD is at it again ::)

Can't leave well enough alone. The garage has talked a lot about pinging Nomads. From what I've read either you bike never pings or pings like crazy. Whats the answer? Not real sure but the noggin is working overtime!

I'm sure that the Nomad owners who've have pinging can relate that to hot days or when the radiator fan has been working. Some people never have a Nomad that runs that hot. I'm starting to think it's geographic in nature and answers can be brainstormed.

Us in the lower states never have a problem with putting our bikes away for the winter and/or have temps that are below zero. All of our bikes are liquid cooled and use, now here is the magic word, "Antifreeze". Notice it's not called "Antiboilover". Although it does that to a small degree.

It's called antifreeze for a reason. If you ran straight water in your motor and it got down well below 32 degrees you could crack your engine block. Thus antifreeze was invented. Works well too in the extreme climates some of you Nomad owners live.

Problem is, is that antifreeze kind of sucks when it comes to keeping an engine cool. Water is still the best "liquid" when it comes to transfering heat away from any source. Yes water boils but in a sealed pressurized system the boiling point is raised to about 230 degrees or 18 degrees about normal.

Now I'm not advocating straight water but a far more deluted mixture of antifreeze to "distilled" water. Instead of 50/50 mix more like 75/25 mix of distilled water to antifreeze for us in the lower warmer states. Some of the two stroke early water cooled race bike I would ride in desert races ran way cooler with hardly any antifreeze whatsoever. Usually 25-45 degrees F cooler.

a 75/25 percent mixture will still stop freezing from zero to -10
F but allow a much higher transfer of heat away from the engine during the hotter months. distilled demineralized water will not develope any "buildup" in the engine so it's safe to run a much reduced radiator solution.

Another food for thought. The Thermostat is set to open at above 135 degrees F. and the fan is set to go on above 212 degrees F.

I don't know anyone with a "running too cool" problem with their Nomads. Most cars today have thermostats opening usually at 195 F. Optimum temp for emissions burning. Nomad's open at 135 F ??? That's like not even having one!

After looking at the cooling system and seeing how much the thermostat obstructs the water passage I'm going to screw around this summer and on the KawaNOW get together in Mesquite.

I'm going to flush my cooling system and get Engine Ice (Enviromentally frendly) and Distilled water and run it at 75% distilled water and 25% Engine Ice and no thermostat just to see the difference. I've been reading lots of information on this and I like what I've read.

A buddy of mine turned me on to thinking about this when I was talking to him about how hot my Nomad runs in the summertime. He works for Mac's Radiator and asked me the size of my engine and how much liquid was in the cooling system. I told him 2.4 quarts and he was dumbfounded! He said that was woefully tiny for a 1600cc motor. He suggested trying to get the most out of my cooling system or get a much larger radiator!

The above ideas are what I've come up with. Since the fan kicks on at 212 F. and the mixtue I'm going to run under a pressurized system wouldn't boil until 240 the fan would stop any chance of boil over and the antifreeze will be more than sufficient for where I live as far a cold temperatures go. Never get colder than 30 is southern california. We shall see....to be cont.....

[audiogooroo]

Interesting. Keep us posted man.

[dantama]

Living in a winter freeze state, I'll only be curious what comes of your experiment. It certainly is something that even hypothetically I've never considered.

Looking forward to the results.

[vroc13091]

BD,

A couple of things to consider during your test is corrosion inhibitors and radiator efficiency.

Reducing the ratio of antifreeze to water reduces the corrosion inhibitor concentration. You might consider adding some especially formulated for aluminum to make up for the reduction.

I don't know how fast the liquid flows through the Nomad radiator at highway speeds. On some of the radiators for cars and trucks built after the mid 80s the radiators were very free flowing and the fluid movement through the system can be very fast if unrestricted.

With the thermostat removed the restriction to fluid is reduced so much that the liquid doesn't stay in contact with the radiator core long enough to transfer the heat at faster speeds since the water pump moves more fluid the higher the engine RPMS.

In some cases with the thermostat out of the cooling system the engine will actually overheat at higher speeds. I don't know it the coolant movement and radiator efficiency is such with the Nomad that this will happen but it is something to be aware of.

My first experience with this was with a older 85 GMC with a 350, headers, a cam, and no thermostat. At speeds of 80 and above it would overheat. The faster I drove it the more it over heated it became. I put in a 160 thermostat and solved the over heating problem.

Just something to think about.

Looking forward to your test findings.

[ells]

Some interesting thoughts, but why not just move to Maine or Wisconsin - uh oh yeah, never mind.

[blowndodge]

txcwdancer:

Corrosion inhibitors are not a big issue when using mineral free water in an aluminum engine. Iron blocks yes, but not aluminum. The 25% antifreeze will more than insure that the aluminum parts will be ok. I understand completely your concerns about coolant not staying in the radiator long enough to be effectively cooled down.

The issue I'm looking at is that the radiator on our Nomads is NOT in a good position as the front tire is in direct line with the radiator. I did a small experiment and covered the radiator a little bit with duct tape and even in 40 degree temperature the fan came on constantly so I know the air flow is marginal at best.

The flow from the gear driven pump doesn't move the fluid very fast at all. According to the specs the turnover of 2.5 quarts is extremely slow according to automotive standards. It pumps the fluid at 1/3 the speed that a standard auto pump flows. If I can move it a little more freely it "might" help. I'm willing to bet that your experience is with a non pressurized systems as most high performance V8's had awhile back..

The auto industry went to pressurized systems to raise the boiling temp of antifreeze. Since the Kawa has a pressurized system, speed of coolant should/might not be an issue as it was before autos start using pressurized systems. As I've said I've read a shiitload on it and the theory as explained because of the examples stated as worth trying out. Putting the thermostat back in if it runs hotter (my research indicates it shouldn't) would only cost me a little time.

I appreciate your input and ideas...

[blowndodge]

Living in a winter freeze state, I'll only be curious what comes of your experiment. It certainly is something that even hypothetically I've never considered.

Looking forward to the results.

Dan, that's becaue I can't leave well enough alone. I know in time your will probably jump your Nomad over the Snake River if you think long enough!!

[ringadingh]

Ive only had the fan come on about 7-8 times since Ive owned it. And thats because I was stuck in very heavy traffic on a very hot day, or I was sitting on the bike talking to my neighbour with it running for about 15-20 minutes. It pinged once and that was because I was going up a steep hill and lugged the motor for a moment. I guess I should leave it alone since all seems fine.

[dank]

Interesting idea. I have not had the pinging problem, but I am in a cooler area. My fan has only come on twice. Once when I was concerned after mo nths of riding and just let it idle on a hot day to make sure it worked and once in a traffic jam on a 90 degree day in July.

Something to consider: Antifreeze serves two functions (beyond the corrosion inhibitors). First is freezing point depression. In hot climates you don't need this. The second is boiling point elevation. It actually is there to also prevent boil over. This is important in hot climates. As you reduce the concentration you will also decrease the protection for boil over. You said you are not going to straight distilled water, so balancing this is just something to consider as you shift the concentration.

My Nomad pings only once in a great while if I lug the motor in 4th or 5th gear. My fan does come on from time to time, often right after shutdown.
What you are proposing is interesting. I would however caution those with bikes still under warranty that removing the thermostat or changing the coolant ratio would not be favorable to them if they developed problems due to overheating and needed warranty work done.
Just something to consider.

[watchman]

I have one of the pinging 1600's. I first did the resister in the air sensor and that helped but I still had some pinging. If I had increased the resister size I believe it would have stopped completely. But being a person that wants things to operate as they are supposed to I had the TPI adjusted. I have to try to get the bike to ping now. Fifth gear roll-on's are not a problem. In cooler weather I can run 89 octane fuel but in hot weather I still have to run 90+. I also marbled the reed valves which keeps the exhaust cooler. Adjusting the TPI cost me about 2 mpg. I was getting 37 to 39 mpg but I now get between 35 and 37 mpg depending on road conditions and how I drive.

[blowndodge]

Dank, that's why car and motorcycle engine manufacturers went to a pressurized system, to raising the boiling point. As I pointed out in the previous posts that a 75/25 % solution in a pressurized system will have a boiling point of about 235 F. The fan kicks on at 212, so boiling over won't/shouldn't be a problem. Fan will come on way before the boiling point. Also remember since there is more water than antifreeze it will/should be harder to get the engine as hot anyway. That's the whole point in my experiment. As it is now when the fan kicks on, it cools it down quickly so I doubt the fan would kick on and the temps would still be rising all the way to 235 F.

[cactusjack]

My cooling fan comes on a lot. I did maybe 30 miles around town on Saturday (temps in the low 70's) and it was coming on when stopped at lights. I didn't buy my Nomad until the end of September, so I haven't tested it during one of our summers yet.

[blowndodge]

Considering your a neighbor in AZ, your going to really feel the heat this summer!! I've ridden in 100+ temps with my Nomad and it was just freeking miserable!!!

[dantama]

My cooling fan comes on a lot. I did maybe 30 miles around town on Saturday (temps in the low 70's) and it was coming on when stopped at lights. I didn't buy my Nomad until the end of September, so I haven't tested it during one of our summers yet.

Mine comes on a lot too.

I was surprised at the poster who said his has only come on like 6 times. Mine does that on an hour ride.