"REDS" P.O.G. just went out

[danimal2]

Thanks for taking the time to post up those links Mick. I was thinking along those same lines. Can't figure out where to introduce the air from though. I was thinking about going through the oil filter pipe/threads, but not sure if there's a physical connection between it and the pump. Other than that, don't where you could put pressure to in an attempt to blow out the obstruction.

The clicking sound has lessened to some degree, but still noticeable.

[mick56]

I would imagine the pump will have a non return valve on it,so you would need to find which way to blow it.If you go at it from the wrong side,you might blow a seal without knowing it,and then you are screwed.Maybe contacting Kawasaki's US head office might get you to a head tech,who would know which is the flow side of the pump,and where you might get an airline to it.Local dealers,in my experiece anyway,dont know much,other than how to replace parts,but it would'nt hurt to try them.

Part 16130 on the drawing is the only reference to a valve,but its not clear where it goes,never mind which way it blows.

Try this mate. https://www.kawasaki.com/Contact/Online

[minst7877]

Did your oil pump screen have a hole in it? No metal should of made it past the screen. More inclined to believe that there is something wedged in the joint between the pump shaft and the oil gear shaft. Wish you luck in figuring this out.

DC


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[minst7877]

There is a diagram of the oil flow in the repair manual.

DC


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[danimal2]

Originally Posted by minst7877

Did your oil pump screen have a hole in it? No metal should of made it past the screen. More inclined to believe that there is something wedged in the joint between the pump shaft and the oil gear shaft. Wish you luck in figuring this out.

DC


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No holes or tears in the screen. I drained the oil and pulled the screen and filter twice. I spent a good bit of time "fishing" the area around the screen for filings etc. I really don't think anything could've made it past the screen and filter to the mains etc. so should be o.k. there. No sign of anything in either the screen or filter. Even when the JOG failed there wasn't anything that made it to the screen. When I fished out all the bits n pieces following the JOG failure, the vast majority were laying right under the pump in the hell hole area. There was four or five pieces no larger than a BB (ends of gear teeth). Most of it was fine shavings/filings. If there is something wedged in there, I'm pretty much screwed. Any access I had to the hell hole has been covered up by the new gear and it's welded on and not coming off for nothing.

Originally Posted by minst7877

There is a diagram of the oil flow in the repair manual.

DC

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I have a manual and referenced the oiling path. If I'm looking at it correctly, there's a direct connection between the oil filter attachment point and the oil pump. Don't know if it's safe to introduce air backwards towards the pump or not with that relief valve in between. Oil flow is intake at the screen 1. to the pump 2. to the relief valve 3. then to the then to the filter 4. if I'm looking at this right.

Looks like the only way you could introduce air to the system without going back against the grain (oil flow path) would be through the oil screen hole, but then you might risk blowing out the relief valve. Might just be stuck with this deal the way it is. The way I look at it, it's 50/50 odds and that's still better than Vegas. Run it till it seizes?????

Again.........I appreciate everyone's input on this deal.

[rolfe]

Did you smooth your welds down flush ? as there is almost 0 % clearance from the gear and clutch basket.

When you test road your bike did the clicking stop once the clutch lever was pulled in ? perhaps a piece of the old gear somehow flipped into the clutch basket?

The removable Oil Screen will keep any trash etc... from getting into the motor.

Do a Oil pressure test to verify the oil pump is functioning correctly.

Can you determine the location of the clicking?

You did mention that when you checked the spin of the oil pump gear that you could feel binding of some sort?

Keep us posted

[danimal2]

Originally Posted by rolfe

Did you smooth your welds down flush ? as there is almost 0 % clearance from the gear and clutch basket.

When you test road your bike did the clicking stop once the clutch lever was pulled in ? perhaps a piece of the old gear somehow flipped into the clutch basket?

The removable Oil Screen will keep any trash etc... from getting into the motor.

Do a Oil pressure test to verify the oil pump is functioning correctly.

Can you determine the location of the clicking?

You did mention that when you checked the spin of the oil pump gear that you could feel binding of some sort?

Keep us posted

There is still a bead, but I knocked it down some and it doesn't make contact.

Clicking sound is there with clutch engaged or disengaged. It doesn't matter. When the gear was welded on I slid the bare clutch basket on and checked clearance by rolling the motor over by hand and watched the gears mesh with an inspection mirror. Saw no issues.

Also no sign of anything rubbing on anything else upon disassembly. If it were hitting I'd see some signs of it on the backside of the clutch basket, spring retainers, the face of the gear itself etc. and there no signs of it.

The clicking is coming from the oil pump itself. It's really not so much a binding, but you can feel a certain spot in the rotation where it stiffens up some. it's possible it was always like that. I couldn't say because I never rolled the pump over by hand previously.

Is the movie on the previous page playing for you? If it does, you can hear the clicking sound coming from the pump. When it first starts out (idle) there's no clicking and everything sounds fine. As rpm picks up the clicking sound is more pronounced and louder. It was actually worse prior to me doing the video clip and it lessened for some reason.

[redjay]

When the weld cooled maybe it drew the shaft outwards causing something to catch inside the pump ? I am not familiar with the pump or the repair so its hard to make an educated guess.

[danimal2]

Originally Posted by redjay

When the weld cooled maybe it drew the shaft outwards causing something to catch inside the pump ? I am not familiar with the pump or the repair so its hard to make an educated guess.

I think I might've figured this out, but if I'm right the scenario isn't a good one. There is a bearing press fit into the engine case where the oil pump shaft goes through. I'm betting that's where my problem lies. The bearing is probably taking a dump.

I always said there was a lot (seemed really excessive) of play in the shaft of the oil pump. I'm betting that's where it's coming from and where the clicking sound is too.

If so, I'm pretty well screwed. I would have to remove the shaft to replace the bearing which puts me right back to square one. My only other option would be to try this and to replace the bearing prior to putting the shaft back in.

http://tearitupfixitrepeat.blogspot....r-circlip.html

[mick56]

http://tearitupfixitrepeat.blogspot....r-circlip.html Good luck with that mate.

I am sure it can be done,but it looks every bit as much a fuck up as the JOG.
You would'nt be able to ride with any conidence at all,forever looking down at the red light,waiting for it to come on.I know how you feel mate,but hold on a bit,someone will come up with an idea in a minute.

[rolfe]

There should be free spinning of the OEM-JOG-SOG with no play. I think you are Right!

At the bottom of the Tear it Up information you posted, there is a comment that said he did replace the POG with a Complete OEM---SOG. I don't do Facebook so couldn't see his photo's. He drilled I believe a hole to take the clip off the POG shaft from inside. You might be able to then pull out the shaft bearing and replace it.
If you really believe the problem is the bearing?

At this stage of the game why not ? and or sell it to a wrench who knows what needs to be done and walk away and get something newer?

You have posted up very valuable information about the bearing! Thank You

Keep Us Posted

Originally Posted by danimal2

I think I might've figured this out, but if I'm right the scenario isn't a good one. There is a bearing press fit into the engine case where the oil pump shaft goes through. I'm betting that's where my problem lies. The bearing is probably taking a dump.

I always said there was a lot (seemed really excessive) of play in the shaft of the oil pump. I'm betting that's where it's coming from and where the clicking sound is too.

If so, I'm pretty well screwed. I would have to remove the shaft to replace the bearing which puts me right back to square one. My only other option would be to try this and to replace the bearing prior to putting the shaft back in.

http://tearitupfixitrepeat.blogspot....r-circlip.html

[mick56]

Probably sound advise mate.But not everyone can afford to walk away,or even fix such a problem.When money is tight,we all need to find an affordable sollution.Plus,i reckon the man loves his bike,and like me,he will find a way.

[minst7877]

Originally Posted by mick56

Where did the $1800 go,i thought it would be just the shaft and a few gaskets & seals,or did you rebuild the motor with new parts.

This ended up as a complete top end plus splitting the case to change the oil pump and gear. Checking all bearings and shift forks. My HLA's collapsed and wouldn't pump back up and there are eight of them in there at the tune of $70 apiece. At this point I never wanted to have to go back into the engine because of trying to cut some corners.

DC


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[danimal2]

Originally Posted by rolfe

There should be free spinning of the OEM-JOG-SOG with no play. I think you are Right!

At the bottom of the Tear it Up information you posted, there is a comment that said he did replace the POG with a Complete OEM---SOG. I don't do Facebook so couldn't see his photo's. He drilled I believe a hole to take the clip off the POG shaft from inside. You might be able to then pull out the shaft bearing and replace it.
If you really believe the problem is the bearing?

At this stage of the game why not ? and or sell it to a wrench who knows what needs to be done and walk away and get something newer?

You have posted up very valuable information about the bearing! Thank You

Keep Us Posted

Guessing I got the shaft too hot during the welding process and heat transferred to the bearing. I didn't even consider that part of the deal. Although it was sloppy before putting the gear on it didn't make that clicking sound. I know I had a good ground whip on the gear and didn't try to weld using the frame as a ground so I don't think that was an issue.

The link and photo are from two different people. Tear it up went through the hell hole. The other guy bored a hole in the crankcase and replaced it that way.

I kinda lean towards the second method because he didn't have to re-work the circlip groove. If I read it correctly he did put a slight bevel on the end of the shaft then held the circlip in place and pushed the shaft through the clip rather than trying to slide the clip onto the shaft.

[Snake Ranch]

Originally Posted by danimal2

Guessing I got the shaft too hot during the welding process and heat transferred to the bearing. I didn't even consider that part of the deal. Although it was sloppy before putting the gear on it didn't make that clicking sound. I know I had a good ground whip on the gear and didn't try to weld using the frame as a ground so I don't think that was an issue.

The link and photo are from two different people. Tear it up went through the hell hole. The other guy bored a hole in the crankcase and replaced it that way.

I kinda lean towards the second method because he didn't have to re-work the circlip groove. If I read it correctly he did put a slight bevel on the end of the shaft then held the circlip in place and pushed the shaft through the clip rather than trying to slide the clip onto the shaft.

If you are going to drill the hole in the case, Take the drill bit and dip it in some grease. Don't spin the drill bit to fast, that way the grease stays in the drill flutes. When you start drilling the grease will capture the chips and they won't fall or get into your engine. If the drill bit loads up with chips, wipe it off and reapply some more grease.

Drilling the hole in the case sound easier.