Better than a good day at work

[mick56]

Originally Posted by ponch

And in the context of the times, what Locke proposed was very liberal and forward thinking.

What he proposed led to the total ownership of slave's and the annihilation of the American Indian's,not sure that was very Liberal, or forward thinking, even then.

[ponch]

Originally Posted by mick56

What he proposed led to the total ownership of slave's and the annihilation of the American Indian's,not sure that was very Liberal, or forward thinking, even then.

That's your unsubstantiated opinion and not what was said there.

[mick56]

Originally Posted by ponch

That's your unsubstantiated opinion and not what was said there.

Mate, you are in danger of starting to sound like the bloke who show's people round an art gallery, pontificating about all the attribute's of the artist's work, when everyone else can see that it's a piece of shit that could have been painted by a retarded 3 yr old.

[ponch]

Originally Posted by mick56

Mate, you are in danger of starting to sound like the bloke who show's people round an art gallery, pontificating about all the attribute's of the artist's work, when everyone else can see that it's a piece of shit that could have been painted by a retarded 3 yr old.

That would require a Ph.D. I am not there yet.

[mick56]

Originally Posted by ponch

That would require a Ph.D. I am not there yet.

:

[paul]

I'm sorry, but isn't "using historical context" just another way of saying it was alright for evil doers to do evil because that's what society at large condoned? Wasn't (in context) German society firmly and decidedly behind Hitler supporting all that he did? (in context) Slavery in the colonies and elsewhere was perfectly fine just some 250 years ago or so. In fact, that and murder are still just fine in many places in the middle east and surrounding region?!
I would simply take a man at face value and let his actions speak for themselves. But, I am simple that way. Again.....Nothing new under the sun. History has changed (in a rather cyclic fashion), Technology has certainly changed in geometric fashion, but, Man........No real change since creation. Your humble servant.


A post script: Ph.D. = "piled higher and deeper" Says a lot about one's ability to read, nothing about one's true intellectual capabilities.

[ponch]

Originally Posted by paul

I'm sorry, but isn't "using historical context" just another way of saying it was alright for evil doers to do evil because that's what society at large condoned? Wasn't (in context) German society firmly and decidedly behind Hitler supporting all that he did? (in context) Slavery in the colonies and elsewhere was perfectly fine just some 250 years ago or so. In fact, that and murder are still just fine in many places in the middle east and surrounding region?!
I would simply take a man at face value and let his actions speak for themselves. But, I am simple that way. Again.....Nothing new under the sun. History has changed (in a rather cyclic fashion), Technology has certainly changed in geometric fashion, but, Man........No real change since creation. Your humble servant.


A post script: Ph.D. = "piled higher and deeper" Says a lot about one's ability to read, nothing about one's true intellectual capabilities.

Not at all. Mores and cultures change. If you continually judge by the standards of today you'll never fully understand what it was like at that time, but rather look at condescendingly and miss the big picture and really understand change. It's being short sighted to judge from today's mores and it doesn't mean one agrees with what was done in a particular era, but it allows one to fully understand what was going on. I can only imagine what the future generations will think of some of us, particularly on social issues of today. They may have the same disgust you do. Would you think that is fair?

As far as Ph.D goes, I don't have one, but I'll challenge you to try it. it's not easy by a long shot. I stopped at a master's degree because I was burnt out. If I ever get the desire to do it, I might go for a Ph.D. It would be free for me anyway.

[paul]

Then if the standards change, who is to say that whatever standards I decide to impose on those around me at whatever time I decide to do so, are right or wrong, good or evil (see Hitler). I may, at any time I wish impose my standards and if I have the might to do so then I, and my standards, are (in historical context ) right. There must be one standard, or in reality there is no standard. Try playing a sport, any sport, where the rules change every 10 minutes or so. (The breaks in the timeline of the entire history of the sport.) Mores and standards really don't change, they just recycle, and depending on who or which organization is in charge at the time, a set of standards is enforced. There is a lot to learn from history. The best expression of this I believe is "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it's mistakes." One can maintain a set of standards, and yet still see another's as they are. Out of the heart, the mouth speaks. Not a direct quote, but the idea is a man (and his society) can be judged by his (their) actions. Whether or not those standards and/or mores are held by that man (society) to be correct or not.

Kind of like holding a motorcycle judging contest, then declaring mine the winner because, after we are using my standards to judge. A standard must exist. I don't have to like it or agree with it, but it must have an ultimate and unchanging authority otherwise it shifts and moves like sand at the whim of whoever has the might or will to enforce. I don't disagree that men have been doing this ever since there were men, but doing a thing still doesn't necessarily lend it credentials.

As far as education goes, nothing wrong with it. I am an avid supporter. But I stand by my original statement. A lot of hard work goes into an education. No one should ever take that away from anyone who has succeeded in this way. But, I've seen too many become educated and then rely too heavily on that education as if it were some kind of magic formula or granted some kind of special status. Education is just education. A lot of reading and studying was done. But I have known a few who spent a lifetime (up to 100 years) reading and studying without any formal declaration. These people knew the true worth of what they had learned, and passed that knowledge forward so as to affect entire generations of family. And all without fanfare, or the need to impress anyone. It was just a way of life. I have had the honor of learning at the feet of such a mentor. I sometimes would like to have more education, but then I just don't know what I would do with it. I cannot experience more freedom or happiness than I do now, so........But, A person should have all that they want. This is good. I know that in many ways I am an underachiever. My level of education comes no where near matching my IQ or ability. But I made peace with my laziness years ago. I learn what is meaningful and important to me. I use it for the benefit of others. I force nothing on anyone, but am happy to share. Peace.

[ponch]

Originally Posted by paul

Then if the standards change, who is to say that whatever standards I decide to impose on those around me at whatever time I decide to do so, are right or wrong, good or evil (see Hitler). I may, at any time I wish impose my standards and if I have the might to do so then I, and my standards, are (in historical context ) right. There must be one standard, or in reality there is no standard. Try playing a sport, any sport, where the rules change every 10 minutes or so. (The breaks in the timeline of the entire history of the sport.) Mores and standards really don't change, they just recycle, and depending on who or which organization is in charge at the time, a set of standards is enforced. There is a lot to learn from history. The best expression of this I believe is "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it's mistakes." One can maintain a set of standards, and yet still see another's as they are. Out of the heart, the mouth speaks. Not a direct quote, but the idea is a man (and his society) can be judged by his (their) actions. Whether or not those standards and/or mores are held by that man (society) to be correct or not.

Kind of like holding a motorcycle judging contest, then declaring mine the winner because, after we are using my standards to judge. A standard must exist. I don't have to like it or agree with it, but it must have an ultimate and unchanging authority otherwise it shifts and moves like sand at the whim of whoever has the might or will to enforce. I don't disagree that men have been doing this ever since there were men, but doing a thing still doesn't necessarily lend it credentials.

As far as education goes, nothing wrong with it. I am an avid supporter. But I stand by my original statement. A lot of hard work goes into an education. No one should ever take that away from anyone who has succeeded in this way. But, I've seen too many become educated and then rely too heavily on that education as if it were some kind of magic formula or granted some kind of special status. Education is just education. A lot of reading and studying was done. But I have known a few who spent a lifetime (up to 100 years) reading and studying without any formal declaration. These people knew the true worth of what they had learned, and passed that knowledge forward so as to affect entire generations of family. And all without fanfare, or the need to impress anyone. It was just a way of life. I have had the honor of learning at the feet of such a mentor. I sometimes would like to have more education, but then I just don't know what I would do with it. I cannot experience more freedom or happiness than I do now, so........But, A person should have all that they want. This is good. I know that in many ways I am an underachiever. My level of education comes no where near matching my IQ or ability. But I made peace with my laziness years ago. I learn what is meaningful and important to me. I use it for the benefit of others. I force nothing on anyone, but am happy to share. Peace.

Never fails to call on Adolph. As far as history goes, it's more than in 1492 columbus sailed the ocean blue. Studies usually include writing from all levels of society and with a dispassionate view through the eyes who lived it and told it. If we judge based solely on our current viewpoint, then it's just confirmation bias of what we believe and not any sort of historiography. I'll also add that education is a beginning, not an end. Many people never question, never want to find answers, but rather rely on wrote and parochial points of view. It's always more interesting to empty one's cup and look at things with a fresh eye.

[OldSchool]

If a motorcycle is left running in the middle of a forest but there is no one around to actually hear it; is it really running ?