Will the USA survive?

[markclark57]

Originally Posted by canedriver

What exactly is wrong with asking everyone to pay taxes (fair share)

Oh wait that's right asking someone who pays zero in taxes to suddey pay taxes is a tax increase and doesn't sit well at the tea party.

LoL

[markclark57]

Originally Posted by canedriver

What exactly is wrong with asking everyone to pay taxes (fair share)

Oh wait that's right asking someone who pays zero in taxes to suddey pay taxes is a tax increase and doesn't sit well at the tea party.

LoL

[markclark57]

Originally Posted by markclark57

LoL

Just, BTW, Patricia and I are not even close to "Wealthy". We do have enough to give our fare share to our church, pay our FULL taxes and still survive. So that's what we do.

[markclark57]

Originally Posted by markclark57

LoL

Just, BTW, Patricia and I are not even close to "Wealthy". We do have enough to give our fare share to our church, pay our FULL taxes and still survive. So that's what we do.

[markclark57]

Warren Buffet is a Sham!!! There is a nice little box on the tax form that allows you to give more than is required if you so choose. OR you can solicit Presidential accolades for the purpose of publicity.

[markclark57]

Warren Buffet is a Sham!!! There is a nice little box on the tax form that allows you to give more than is required if you so choose. OR you can solicit Presidential accolades for the purpose of publicity.

[markclark57]

Just another BILLIONARE looking for another $.

[markclark57]

Just another BILLIONARE looking for another $.

[glwilson]

I love the anti government rant. Lets do away with it completely I am sure you think that will solve all your problems. Someone said beware of what you wish for hoping for bigger government. I say beware of what you wish for when you have no government.
You laugh at me when I say corporations are to blame for part of this. I laugh at the ignorance. Far easier to bury your head in the sand and ignore the facts around you.

Let me ask you this. If companies are hurting why are profits up? The workers are the ones hurting NOT the companies. I am talking major corporations not your smaller mom and pop shops.

Western nations as a whole are moving to a more service oriented economy. Unfortunately for the United States those service oriented jobs are being moved over seas. Here is where some of you guys are gong to slam the worker and say they are greedy self serving people who drove business right out of the country. WRONG. I am talking jobs like call centers that pay $8.00 an hour. These service everything from your bank, credit cards, customer service, and even the lower end telemarketing. Even those are disappearing from America.

You are right that it is our current political system to blame, but who do you think pays those lobbyists? That would be the corporations.

I am curious as to how you propose to fix the current unemployment system as these are the people you want to kick off the government welfare.

In 2010 Productivity rose 3.9% while unit labor fell 1.5%. What this means is companies are making more using less labor. So with 13 million + out of work companies squeeze more labor from the current work force, post ever increasing profits, and pay less in taxes. See GE who paid 0 taxes on 5.1 billion. Operating margins stand at a near record of 19.8%

Sorry but the problem isn't the people on the welfare or unemployment books. Its big corporations who can pay politicians to make a system that keeps the average worker stuck in a lowering economic middle class.

I love the anti government rant. Lets do away with it completely I am sure you think that will solve all your problems. Someone said beware of what you wish for hoping for bigger government. I say beware of what you wish for when you have no government.

I didn't say get rid of the government... I merely blamed it for what it does the best... and that is screw-up our economy, and waste our tax-dollars. That one cannot possibly be something anyone would argue with.

With regard to the comment: "You would be surprised at how little you would miss big-government." That statement didn't say anything about "no-government"; but rather "big-government"... so don't put words in my mouth.

You laugh at me when I say corporations are to blame for part of this. I laugh at the ignorance. Far easier to bury your head in the sand and ignore the facts around you.

I said that politicians are at the root (and blame) for the problems we have. Politicians (the government) is the only ruling body with legal power to have changed this environment -- not individuals, corporations or anyone else but the "governing-bodies" in the U.S. So, "yes", the politicians ARE to blame, since they have the ability with the stroke of a pen to correct their mistakes -- including the way in which people, corporations, non-profits, and other such entities lobby our politicians for "favors". The system is broken -- period; and there are a lot more "lobbying" politicians than just corporations. So, please be sure to include everyone in your blame-game party.

Let me ask you this. If companies are hurting why are profits up? The workers are the ones hurting NOT the companies. I am talking major corporations not your smaller mom and pop shops.

Didn't say corporations were hurting. I double-checked... didn't see that. But now that you asked... I am more than obliged to respond to your anti-corporate American ranting and blame-game.

Record profits... let's see... Economics 101... "make your business profitable" is goal one. However, profit-growth projections are expected to slow-down tremendously as the global economy remains muted... to say it kindly. The only reason profits have been good over the last three years is because businesses slimmed-down to the bare-essentials to remain viable. Again... business 101.

Regarding employees being the blame... not sure I said that either. I merely stated that just because a company, business, a corporation, or a person is "profitable" doesn't give anyone any right to that money -- period. And I stand by that statement. This isn't a socialistic country here. People and businesses need to be accountable for their actions and live with the consequences of their actions (or lack of actions in the case if they are lazy).

Regarding record cash on business balance-sheets... they would like to spend that money to make more money if only they could. Why can't they you ask? Simply because no one with any prudence would authorize capital-expansion without first having a good idea if spending the money would make money... or be profitable. Since the line-items of: Taxation, Regulation-Cost, Entitlement Cost, Payroll Cost, Employee Benefit Cost, and on and on cannot be answered it would NOT be prudent (and may possibly cause a lawsuit) to spend money without having answers to those questions (questions that obviously Obama's team ignored when they gave a major contributor of his campaign and the Dem-party over $500 million dollars against advice of possible default by the company) (More on that later.).

No one knows where these costs are going to go; and certainly not for a long-term period -- which is what anyone spending money on capital-expansion needs to know... "what are these expenses reasonably expected to be for the long-term?" There isn't a Board of Directors anywhere that are willing to bet on the unknown.


Western nations as a whole are moving to a more service oriented economy. Unfortunately for the United States those service oriented jobs are being moved over seas. Here is where some of you guys are gong to slam the worker and say they are greedy self serving people who drove business right out of the country. WRONG. I am talking jobs like call centers that pay $8.00 an hour. These service everything from your bank, credit cards, customer service, and even the lower end telemarketing. Even those are disappearing from America.

Let's see... maybe it is the corporations that are to blame here...

Nope... I believe it is again the U.S. government. You see, it ALL starts and ends with what our politicians do. NAFTA is a great example of the "sucking-sound of jobs leaving our country". There are others... but none of these were laws that corporations, small businesses, or even employees put into place. It all starts and ends with our politicians.

Besides... ask a call center in the U.S. if they can get enough people to work for them. (Yes, there are call-centers still in the U.S.) You will find the average American worker most often will not work for such a lowly-wage. They instead would rather get their two-years of unemployment.

Why don't we try to make unemployment benefits a descending scale of benefit. In other words... week 52 doesn't pay you the same as week 1. Let's face it... we all know people that won't go get a job (at a call center if that what it takes) because they'll make less than unemployment... and who likes to work anyway when you can stay at home and get paid? If you continue to pay people to do nothing than you should expect them to do nothing. Unfortunately, it is working in that manner in some cases.


You are right that it is our current political system to blame, but who do you think pays those lobbyists? That would be the corporations.

Corporations, Churches, Non-profits, endowments, small-business affinity groups, individual-rights groups, Green Peace, and on and on pay lobbyist to lobby our politicians. Please don't leave out the rest of the crowd in your blame. Geez... they might feel offended not being included.

Again... who can stop lobbying? Who can change the laws that feed the corruption in our government? It is, again, the politicians. Businesses, Churches, Non-profits, endowments, small-business affinity groups, individual-rights groups, Green Peace, and others are required to play this "payola-game" with politicians. The politicians know it, and love it. This is how they get power and money -- especially after their political careers are over. Many become lobbyists themselves or setup companies that hire their children to lobby politicians.

So back to business 101 rule 1 which is to make your business profitable. Lobbying is a requirement... so don't blame businesses... they didn't start and they cannot end it alone. Only politicians can do that with a stoke of the pen.

I am curious as to how you propose to fix the current unemployment system as these are the people you want to kick off the government welfare.

Eliminate government's wasteful spending of everyone's money and keep the money in the pockets of people and businesses. Then establish a long-term business and investment friendly environment that encourages individuals and businesses to expand, create, and grow a functioning enterprise -- large or small. Adjust the tax-code to incentivize businesses and individuals to spend money on capital-expenditures. All of which is designed to increase the velocity of money annually. (Velocity of money is "how many times a dollar exchanges hands in a year.) When the velocity of money increases, tax-revenues will increase as there are taxes paid at the exchange of each dollar.

I would approach taxation as it should be... which is a tool with which the government can incentivize or discourage economic activity. By just applying a heavy-increase in income taxes does nothing to encourage growth and capital spending. It merely takes money away from those who have it. Again... I would change the tax-codes to incentivize capital expenditures to help increase the velocity of money.

In 2010 Productivity rose 3.9% while unit labor fell 1.5%. What this means is companies are making more using less labor. So with 13 million + out of work companies squeeze more labor from the current work force, post ever increasing profits, and pay less in taxes. See GE who paid 0 taxes on 5.1 billion. Operating margins stand at a near record of 19.8%

Didn't check your figures here... they are a bit old, but I'll take your word for them. They seem appropriate -- however, businesses (large and small) have since the beginning of time, improved the efficiencies of their workforce. Welcome to progress! A farmer now gets a minimum of two-ears of corn on each stalk these days. Again, business 101... make your business profitable. If using technology improves productivity, then so be it. It is the responsibility of each individual to maintain their "worthiness" as a "working entity" to survive. Don't go to school, or pass on the night-classes to improve your knowledge and skills... then you have just put yourself out of a job.

Instead of "whining" about how productivity has increased... I would rather "whine" about how the root of the problem lies within the individual in not creating their own self-worth to the world.

Instead, our government (and those that pander to "helping those that are so unfortunate") wins votes by telling people they can be paid for what little they do... and what's better yet? We'll even pay you for what you don't do. That is the root of the problem... permanent fixes for temporary problems. Again... the government (politicians) pander to these individuals to further their own personal power and agendas to create wealth for themselves and their cronies.


Sorry but the problem isn't the people on the welfare or unemployment books. Its big corporations who can pay politicians to make a system that keeps the average worker stuck in a lowering economic middle class.

I think I answered this one "ad-nausea" above.

Now for the last point you so kindly provided; which is your example of how a company could increase employment.

90% tax-rate?!! That is an example of "convenient numbers". Besides; who would operate any business with that small a margin of profit given the risk of failure (businesses do fail at alarming rates, so any assumption that running a business is a fairy-tale come true is a bit unrealistic).

I understood your example, but you will not incentivize anyone to put their money at complete risk in a business to only realize that small of a reward

Look... instead of trying to eliminate millionaires... how about we try to make more people millionaires? That's right... let's not try to bash people who work hard and put their money at risk to achieve the American Dream... let's instead provide opportunity for more people to get out of bed, go to work, go to school, stay longer to learn more, to read more, anything that will help them become the next millionaire.

By the way... I re-worked the math again... taking every dime corporations and millionaires earn in a year and giving it to the "wonderful servants of our money" would not pay for one year's cost of running our government.

We don't have a taxation problem... we have a government spending problem -- period.

Greece today... the U.S. tomorrow... I promise if the right changes are not made soon.

[glwilson]

I love the anti government rant. Lets do away with it completely I am sure you think that will solve all your problems. Someone said beware of what you wish for hoping for bigger government. I say beware of what you wish for when you have no government.
You laugh at me when I say corporations are to blame for part of this. I laugh at the ignorance. Far easier to bury your head in the sand and ignore the facts around you.

Let me ask you this. If companies are hurting why are profits up? The workers are the ones hurting NOT the companies. I am talking major corporations not your smaller mom and pop shops.

Western nations as a whole are moving to a more service oriented economy. Unfortunately for the United States those service oriented jobs are being moved over seas. Here is where some of you guys are gong to slam the worker and say they are greedy self serving people who drove business right out of the country. WRONG. I am talking jobs like call centers that pay $8.00 an hour. These service everything from your bank, credit cards, customer service, and even the lower end telemarketing. Even those are disappearing from America.

You are right that it is our current political system to blame, but who do you think pays those lobbyists? That would be the corporations.

I am curious as to how you propose to fix the current unemployment system as these are the people you want to kick off the government welfare.

In 2010 Productivity rose 3.9% while unit labor fell 1.5%. What this means is companies are making more using less labor. So with 13 million + out of work companies squeeze more labor from the current work force, post ever increasing profits, and pay less in taxes. See GE who paid 0 taxes on 5.1 billion. Operating margins stand at a near record of 19.8%

Sorry but the problem isn't the people on the welfare or unemployment books. Its big corporations who can pay politicians to make a system that keeps the average worker stuck in a lowering economic middle class.

I love the anti government rant. Lets do away with it completely I am sure you think that will solve all your problems. Someone said beware of what you wish for hoping for bigger government. I say beware of what you wish for when you have no government.

I didn't say get rid of the government... I merely blamed it for what it does the best... and that is screw-up our economy, and waste our tax-dollars. That one cannot possibly be something anyone would argue with.

With regard to the comment: "You would be surprised at how little you would miss big-government." That statement didn't say anything about "no-government"; but rather "big-government"... so don't put words in my mouth.

You laugh at me when I say corporations are to blame for part of this. I laugh at the ignorance. Far easier to bury your head in the sand and ignore the facts around you.

I said that politicians are at the root (and blame) for the problems we have. Politicians (the government) is the only ruling body with legal power to have changed this environment -- not individuals, corporations or anyone else but the "governing-bodies" in the U.S. So, "yes", the politicians ARE to blame, since they have the ability with the stroke of a pen to correct their mistakes -- including the way in which people, corporations, non-profits, and other such entities lobby our politicians for "favors". The system is broken -- period; and there are a lot more "lobbying" politicians than just corporations. So, please be sure to include everyone in your blame-game party.

Let me ask you this. If companies are hurting why are profits up? The workers are the ones hurting NOT the companies. I am talking major corporations not your smaller mom and pop shops.

Didn't say corporations were hurting. I double-checked... didn't see that. But now that you asked... I am more than obliged to respond to your anti-corporate American ranting and blame-game.

Record profits... let's see... Economics 101... "make your business profitable" is goal one. However, profit-growth projections are expected to slow-down tremendously as the global economy remains muted... to say it kindly. The only reason profits have been good over the last three years is because businesses slimmed-down to the bare-essentials to remain viable. Again... business 101.

Regarding employees being the blame... not sure I said that either. I merely stated that just because a company, business, a corporation, or a person is "profitable" doesn't give anyone any right to that money -- period. And I stand by that statement. This isn't a socialistic country here. People and businesses need to be accountable for their actions and live with the consequences of their actions (or lack of actions in the case if they are lazy).

Regarding record cash on business balance-sheets... they would like to spend that money to make more money if only they could. Why can't they you ask? Simply because no one with any prudence would authorize capital-expansion without first having a good idea if spending the money would make money... or be profitable. Since the line-items of: Taxation, Regulation-Cost, Entitlement Cost, Payroll Cost, Employee Benefit Cost, and on and on cannot be answered it would NOT be prudent (and may possibly cause a lawsuit) to spend money without having answers to those questions (questions that obviously Obama's team ignored when they gave a major contributor of his campaign and the Dem-party over $500 million dollars against advice of possible default by the company) (More on that later.).

No one knows where these costs are going to go; and certainly not for a long-term period -- which is what anyone spending money on capital-expansion needs to know... "what are these expenses reasonably expected to be for the long-term?" There isn't a Board of Directors anywhere that are willing to bet on the unknown.


Western nations as a whole are moving to a more service oriented economy. Unfortunately for the United States those service oriented jobs are being moved over seas. Here is where some of you guys are gong to slam the worker and say they are greedy self serving people who drove business right out of the country. WRONG. I am talking jobs like call centers that pay $8.00 an hour. These service everything from your bank, credit cards, customer service, and even the lower end telemarketing. Even those are disappearing from America.

Let's see... maybe it is the corporations that are to blame here...

Nope... I believe it is again the U.S. government. You see, it ALL starts and ends with what our politicians do. NAFTA is a great example of the "sucking-sound of jobs leaving our country". There are others... but none of these were laws that corporations, small businesses, or even employees put into place. It all starts and ends with our politicians.

Besides... ask a call center in the U.S. if they can get enough people to work for them. (Yes, there are call-centers still in the U.S.) You will find the average American worker most often will not work for such a lowly-wage. They instead would rather get their two-years of unemployment.

Why don't we try to make unemployment benefits a descending scale of benefit. In other words... week 52 doesn't pay you the same as week 1. Let's face it... we all know people that won't go get a job (at a call center if that what it takes) because they'll make less than unemployment... and who likes to work anyway when you can stay at home and get paid? If you continue to pay people to do nothing than you should expect them to do nothing. Unfortunately, it is working in that manner in some cases.


You are right that it is our current political system to blame, but who do you think pays those lobbyists? That would be the corporations.

Corporations, Churches, Non-profits, endowments, small-business affinity groups, individual-rights groups, Green Peace, and on and on pay lobbyist to lobby our politicians. Please don't leave out the rest of the crowd in your blame. Geez... they might feel offended not being included.

Again... who can stop lobbying? Who can change the laws that feed the corruption in our government? It is, again, the politicians. Businesses, Churches, Non-profits, endowments, small-business affinity groups, individual-rights groups, Green Peace, and others are required to play this "payola-game" with politicians. The politicians know it, and love it. This is how they get power and money -- especially after their political careers are over. Many become lobbyists themselves or setup companies that hire their children to lobby politicians.

So back to business 101 rule 1 which is to make your business profitable. Lobbying is a requirement... so don't blame businesses... they didn't start and they cannot end it alone. Only politicians can do that with a stoke of the pen.

I am curious as to how you propose to fix the current unemployment system as these are the people you want to kick off the government welfare.

Eliminate government's wasteful spending of everyone's money and keep the money in the pockets of people and businesses. Then establish a long-term business and investment friendly environment that encourages individuals and businesses to expand, create, and grow a functioning enterprise -- large or small. Adjust the tax-code to incentivize businesses and individuals to spend money on capital-expenditures. All of which is designed to increase the velocity of money annually. (Velocity of money is "how many times a dollar exchanges hands in a year.) When the velocity of money increases, tax-revenues will increase as there are taxes paid at the exchange of each dollar.

I would approach taxation as it should be... which is a tool with which the government can incentivize or discourage economic activity. By just applying a heavy-increase in income taxes does nothing to encourage growth and capital spending. It merely takes money away from those who have it. Again... I would change the tax-codes to incentivize capital expenditures to help increase the velocity of money.

In 2010 Productivity rose 3.9% while unit labor fell 1.5%. What this means is companies are making more using less labor. So with 13 million + out of work companies squeeze more labor from the current work force, post ever increasing profits, and pay less in taxes. See GE who paid 0 taxes on 5.1 billion. Operating margins stand at a near record of 19.8%

Didn't check your figures here... they are a bit old, but I'll take your word for them. They seem appropriate -- however, businesses (large and small) have since the beginning of time, improved the efficiencies of their workforce. Welcome to progress! A farmer now gets a minimum of two-ears of corn on each stalk these days. Again, business 101... make your business profitable. If using technology improves productivity, then so be it. It is the responsibility of each individual to maintain their "worthiness" as a "working entity" to survive. Don't go to school, or pass on the night-classes to improve your knowledge and skills... then you have just put yourself out of a job.

Instead of "whining" about how productivity has increased... I would rather "whine" about how the root of the problem lies within the individual in not creating their own self-worth to the world.

Instead, our government (and those that pander to "helping those that are so unfortunate") wins votes by telling people they can be paid for what little they do... and what's better yet? We'll even pay you for what you don't do. That is the root of the problem... permanent fixes for temporary problems. Again... the government (politicians) pander to these individuals to further their own personal power and agendas to create wealth for themselves and their cronies.


Sorry but the problem isn't the people on the welfare or unemployment books. Its big corporations who can pay politicians to make a system that keeps the average worker stuck in a lowering economic middle class.

I think I answered this one "ad-nausea" above.

Now for the last point you so kindly provided; which is your example of how a company could increase employment.

90% tax-rate?!! That is an example of "convenient numbers". Besides; who would operate any business with that small a margin of profit given the risk of failure (businesses do fail at alarming rates, so any assumption that running a business is a fairy-tale come true is a bit unrealistic).

I understood your example, but you will not incentivize anyone to put their money at complete risk in a business to only realize that small of a reward

Look... instead of trying to eliminate millionaires... how about we try to make more people millionaires? That's right... let's not try to bash people who work hard and put their money at risk to achieve the American Dream... let's instead provide opportunity for more people to get out of bed, go to work, go to school, stay longer to learn more, to read more, anything that will help them become the next millionaire.

By the way... I re-worked the math again... taking every dime corporations and millionaires earn in a year and giving it to the "wonderful servants of our money" would not pay for one year's cost of running our government.

We don't have a taxation problem... we have a government spending problem -- period.

Greece today... the U.S. tomorrow... I promise if the right changes are not made soon.

[glwilson]

Originally Posted by canedriver

What exactly is wrong with asking everyone to pay taxes (fair share)

Oh wait that's right asking someone who pays zero in taxes to suddey pay taxes is a tax increase and doesn't sit well at the tea party.

Fair share? That really amazes me when anyone says that. Let's see... 47% do not pay any taxes... but those that pay 80% of all taxes need to pay more??

That sounds fair to me... ::) Geez...

There is a reason capital gains rates were set lower than income rates. That is because capital purchases have more risk related to them. There is no risk in buying a lunch bucket to take to work, or a pair of boots... but buying a business, or starting a business, or investing in a business has real risk in the loss of principle. So... capital gains taxation was reduced to encourage more to invest in these types of "growth-generating", job-creating investments.

Fairness of taxation???? You have go to be kidding me. Who are you to think like that? Are you making money from the bigger government? I mean really... I have to ask the question, because I just cannot see any of your logic.

And "no" I am NOT the tea-party... thank-you ;)

[glwilson]

Originally Posted by canedriver

What exactly is wrong with asking everyone to pay taxes (fair share)

Oh wait that's right asking someone who pays zero in taxes to suddey pay taxes is a tax increase and doesn't sit well at the tea party.

Fair share? That really amazes me when anyone says that. Let's see... 47% do not pay any taxes... but those that pay 80% of all taxes need to pay more??

That sounds fair to me... ::) Geez...

There is a reason capital gains rates were set lower than income rates. That is because capital purchases have more risk related to them. There is no risk in buying a lunch bucket to take to work, or a pair of boots... but buying a business, or starting a business, or investing in a business has real risk in the loss of principle. So... capital gains taxation was reduced to encourage more to invest in these types of "growth-generating", job-creating investments.

Fairness of taxation???? You have go to be kidding me. Who are you to think like that? Are you making money from the bigger government? I mean really... I have to ask the question, because I just cannot see any of your logic.

And "no" I am NOT the tea-party... thank-you ;)

[markclark57]

OK guys, quit pushing Greg's hot buttons or start paying his health insurance. . . "We can't afford to do both".

[markclark57]

OK guys, quit pushing Greg's hot buttons or start paying his health insurance. . . "We can't afford to do both".

[Loafer]

But have you ever been invited to a tea party?