Went on an unscheduled group ride

[ponch]

Originally Posted by Monkeyman

I put a set of Dmyers 12.5" bars on my Nomad and the aftermarket bars on my Vision are 2" taller with a 2" greater pullback. I could almost use another inch of pullback to be "just right". One of the reasons why I didn't look at any sport tourers when I got my Vic was because of the seating position. Like you, I need to be able to sit straight up. Bad knees, bad hip, bad back, bad....you get the idea.

It depends on the sport tourer. The RT, ST and Trophy are the least sporty. The C14 and FJR the most. The best bike I have sat on was a R1200GSA. Those adventure bikes have more leg room and sit straight up. They tend to be lighter without power penalty and have more suspension travel than other bikes.

[Monkeyman]

I sat on a BMW K 1200 LT today. The riding position wasn't as horrible as I thought it would be. I might go back tomorrow and ride it around the block. Odd bike. Harley like turn signal switches (one on each side) but with a single (and separate) turn signal cancel button. Some sort of radio doohickey on top of the left side bars (CB?) and an electronic gadget (with a selector knob) in the front cubby hole. I don't remember what year it is but they want 10 grand so it's not something I'd consider. I just want to ride it to say I did. Looks completely different than your R1200RT. The only Wiki I can find on it (the K1200) is in German and, even with a translation, it doesn't tell me much. All I can figure is the R is more sport oriented and the K is more touring oriented. (Not that any of this matters since I don't have a BMW in my garage.)

[ponch]

Originally Posted by Monkeyman

I sat on a BMW K 1200 LT today. The riding position wasn't as horrible as I thought it would be. I might go back tomorrow and ride it around the block. Odd bike. Harley like turn signal switches (one on each side) but with a single (and separate) turn signal cancel button. Some sort of radio doohickey on top of the left side bars (CB?) and an electronic gadget (with a selector knob) in the front cubby hole. I don't remember what year it is but they want 10 grand so it's not something I'd consider. I just want to ride it to say I did. Looks completely different than your R1200RT. The only Wiki I can find on it (the K1200) is in German and, even with a translation, it doesn't tell me much. All I can figure is the R is more sport oriented and the K is more touring oriented. (Not that any of this matters since I don't have a BMW in my garage.)

The K1200LT was discontinued in 2009. It is an odd bike, I'd never buy one, but that's just me. It's long in tooth and outdated. If you want to ride something exciting, try a K1600GT or even the new water cooled RT. Much quicker, faster and more modern. The new BMWs have japanese like switch gear, so no more separate signals. As much as I don't like the separate signals, the old switch gear was better quality. The new stuff has been problematic...The R bikes are a lot lighter than the K bikes, in general and without giving up load capacity either. You might like a lighter bike that can do it all.

If I was getting another bike, I'd lean towards an adventure touring bike, like the R1200GSA, Moto Guzzi Stelvio NTX or even a Ducati Multistrada GT if I had the dough. The Kawasaki Versys 1000 may be coming to America too and that would be a bargain. Lots of suspension travel, power, not too heavy and can do dirt roads a lot better not to mention that they have better ergos for big people.

Good luck on your test ride.

[Monkeyman]

Like I said, I don't want to buy it but thought it might be fun to take it around the block just to say I did. (I didn't make it today. Got a cold...at the start of my vacation. Wouldn't have it any other way. :( ) If I were to get another bike, I'd consider something sportier assuming the fit was good but I'd still want boulevard cruising/touring capabilities. I just can't see me on any sort of dual sport bike.

I read some reviews on the K1200LT last night (as well as some YouTube vids). None of them (including one done by some BMW road riders group (?) president) were "glowing". Lots of common issues and VERY expensive to fix. One ex BMW mechanic (according to him, anyway) said that there were multiple common reasons why the clutch went out on that model and that it cost upwards of $2500 for a shop to replace the clutch. Just one example of why the K1200LT was NOT the bike to buy. I read alot of "top heavy" comments. I would think that a sport tourer would be anything but top heavy. Wouldn't that defeat the "sport" part? :)

I guess I'm just one of those guys that wants it all. Power, handling, amenities, etc. Looks are subjective and are at the very bottom of my "wish list". (My Vision looks funny but it's got power, handling, amenities, etc so it's a good fit for me.)

[ponch]

Originally Posted by Monkeyman

Like I said, I don't want to buy it but thought it might be fun to take it around the block just to say I did. (I didn't make it today. Got a cold...at the start of my vacation. Wouldn't have it any other way. :( ) If I were to get another bike, I'd consider something sportier assuming the fit was good but I'd still want boulevard cruising/touring capabilities. I just can't see me on any sort of dual sport bike.

I read some reviews on the K1200LT last night (as well as some YouTube vids). None of them (including one done by some BMW road riders group (?) president) were "glowing". Lots of common issues and VERY expensive to fix. One ex BMW mechanic (according to him, anyway) said that there were multiple common reasons why the clutch went out on that model and that it cost upwards of $2500 for a shop to replace the clutch. Just one example of why the K1200LT was NOT the bike to buy. I read alot of "top heavy" comments. I would think that a sport tourer would be anything but top heavy. Wouldn't that defeat the "sport" part? :)

I guess I'm just one of those guys that wants it all. Power, handling, amenities, etc. Looks are subjective and are at the very bottom of my "wish list". (My Vision looks funny but it's got power, handling, amenities, etc so it's a good fit for me.)

The K1200LT is not a sport tourer. It weighs 850lbs. It's a full boat tourer. That said, the brick Ks and the air/oil cooled R bikes have the same pain in replacing the clutch. If you need it done, it will cost you. That said, a clutch should last 100K miles. The new R and K bikes have easily replaceable clutches, but the R bike is the easier to work on. That said, if you want to try something that has it all, the new water cooled R1200RT is a very nice bike. 600lbs wet, more features and amenities than your vision and it's quicker, stops better and handles better too. The luggage is quick detachable and can be had with central locking too. That said, I'd never buy a K1200LT and the K1600 is a bit out of my price range. I will tell you too that I didn't see myself on a sport tourer either. Who cares as long as it works well.

Here's a BMW mechanic's view of the K1200LT.

[schoeney]

Originally Posted by Monkeyman

Like I said, I don't want to buy it but thought it might be fun to take it around the block just to say I did. (I didn't make it today. Got a cold...at the start of my vacation. Wouldn't have it any other way. :( ) If I were to get another bike, I'd consider something sportier assuming the fit was good but I'd still want boulevard cruising/touring capabilities. I just can't see me on any sort of dual sport bike.

I read some reviews on the K1200LT last night (as well as some YouTube vids). None of them (including one done by some BMW road riders group (?) president) were "glowing". Lots of common issues and VERY expensive to fix. One ex BMW mechanic (according to him, anyway) said that there were multiple common reasons why the clutch went out on that model and that it cost upwards of $2500 for a shop to replace the clutch. Just one example of why the K1200LT was NOT the bike to buy. I read alot of "top heavy" comments. I would think that a sport tourer would be anything but top heavy. Wouldn't that defeat the "sport" part? :)

I guess I'm just one of those guys that wants it all. Power, handling, amenities, etc. Looks are subjective and are at the very bottom of my "wish list". (My Vision looks funny but it's got power, handling, amenities, etc so it's a good fit for me.)

This theme of issues seems to be common across many BMW models. Even the most loyal will tell me the BMW's are problematic and spendy to own...including the newer K1600 but they love em anyhow because they are great rides when they are not in the shop.

[ponch]

Originally Posted by schoeney

This theme of issues seems to be common across many BMW models. Even the most loyal will tell me the BMW's are problematic and spendy to own...including the newer K1600 but they love em anyhow because they are great rides when they are not in the shop.

I think waiting for a 3rd year model is a safe bet and this goes for Ducati and Moto Guzzi too. Something about how european bike makers operate. The other thing is maintenance. If someone is used to a big vtwin, almost any other bike will require more maintenance, but the trade off is more performance to an extent. Unfortunately, the twain haven't met yet, meaning performance/leading edge and ease of maintenance. I'm still waiting though.

[schoeney]

Originally Posted by ponch

The Japanese manufacturers tend to be value focused. You'll have to go to premium brands to get better.

Better what? Power? Comfort? Handling? Reliability? Electronics?

I say the Japs can hold their own in all these areas, especially the new FJR.

[ponch]

Originally Posted by schoeney

Better what? Power? Comfort? Handling? Reliability? Electronics?

I say the Japs can hold their own in all these areas, especially the new FJR.

The FJR moved up to where the Germans, Austrians and Italians used to be. They are a generation behind, especially electronics and features. Same with the Triumph Trophy. It's a great bike compared to mine, but the new RT blows it away. That's the one area that the japanese fall short sometimes and that is keeping up with the rising bar. It's not to say they don't make a great product, but it's not cutting or leading edge.

If you've kept up with Intermot, there were a lot of announcements today from just about everyone.

[Monkeyman]

Originally Posted by ponch

That said, if you want to try something that has it all, the new water cooled R1200RT is a very nice bike. 600lbs wet, more features and amenities than your vision and it's quicker, stops better and handles better too. The luggage is quick detachable and can be had with central locking too.

I will tell you too that I didn't see myself on a sport tourer either. Who cares as long as it works well.

Here's a BMW mechanic's view of the K1200LT.

That was the video I was referencing. I just scanned the BMW website looking at the R1200RT. Much nicer than I thought (I envisioned a stripped down SPORT tourer, with much more emphasis on sport than tourer.) I didn't know it was basically a baby K1600. It really looks like a nice bike, if....

I don't have any issues with a sports tourer other than the fact that I'm a BIG guy and don't think I can comfortably squeeze myself into one (BMW or not). Maybe I'd be surprised. I wouldn't mind test riding one but the nearest BMW dealer is in Indianapolis (about 80 miles south) so I probably wouldn't ride down there (I hate cities) just to sit on one to see. On the other hand, if I DID fit on one, I could see looking at a 3 year old one in, well...about 3 years. The price is comparable to a new Vision (just north of 20 large) and in 3 years, I can see a used one being in the low teens. Slightly more hp, about the same torque but 300 pounds lighter than my Vision. I'm not sure how well a 300 pound guy (that would be me) would fit on a bike like that. Would it even be comfortable on a long trip? So many bikes are ergonomically incorrect for big guys. I don't fit on either a 1500 or 1800 Wing (I've tried them both and feel like I'm on a toy scooter) and I'd imagine the R1200RT is smaller than either of those.

Anyhow, I'm just rambling now. I appreciate the info. Gives me something to think about.

[ponch]

Originally Posted by Monkeyman

That was the video I was referencing. I just scanned the BMW website looking at the R1200RT. Much nicer than I thought (I envisioned a stripped down SPORT tourer, with much more emphasis on sport than tourer.) I didn't know it was basically a baby K1600. It really looks like a nice bike, if....

I don't have any issues with a sports tourer other than the fact that I'm a BIG guy and don't think I can comfortably squeeze myself into one (BMW or not). Maybe I'd be surprised. I wouldn't mind test riding one but the nearest BMW dealer is in Indianapolis (about 80 miles south) so I probably wouldn't ride down there (I hate cities) just to sit on one to see. On the other hand, if I DID fit on one, I could see looking at a 3 year old one in, well...about 3 years. The price is comparable to a new Vision (just north of 20 large) and in 3 years, I can see a used one being in the low teens. Slightly more hp, about the same torque but 300 pounds lighter than my Vision. I'm not sure how well a 300 pound guy (that would be me) would fit on a bike like that. Would it even be comfortable on a long trip? So many bikes are ergonomically incorrect for big guys. I don't fit on either a 1500 or 1800 Wing (I've tried them both and feel like I'm on a toy scooter) and I'd imagine the R1200RT is smaller than either of those.

Anyhow, I'm just rambling now. I appreciate the info. Gives me something to think about.

I'm bigger than you and ride one. Look at my avatar. My only advice is to get a russell seat. Also, it probably has more than just a little more HP. around 110 at the rear wheel for the new ones. Rear wheel torque is in the 80s and that's for a 1170cc twin. It does low 11s in the quarter. Not shabby, but even my bike spanks the Vics and big twin HDs. I bet if you tried a new water cooled RT, you'd be pleasantly surprised.

[Monkeyman]

Originally Posted by ponch

I'm bigger than you and ride one. Look at my avatar. My only advice is to get a russell seat. Also, it probably has more than just a little more HP. around 110 at the rear wheel for the new ones. Rear wheel torque is in the 80s and that's for a 1170cc twin. It does low 11s in the quarter. Not shabby, but even my bike spanks the Vics and big twin HDs. I bet if you tried a new water cooled RT, you'd be pleasantly surprised.

I can't tell anything by that oversized pic. :) 110 hp "at the rear wheel"? Are you sure? If so, it has significantly more hp than my Vic as mine has 100 hp at the crank although there's less loss through a belt than a shaft. Still, even if the power figures were identical, it's 300 pounds lighter than my Vic. That's significant. I'd like to try one out even if I can't afford one now.

[ponch]

Originally Posted by Monkeyman

I can't tell anything by that oversized pic. :) 110 hp "at the rear wheel"? Are you sure? If so, it has significantly more hp than my Vic as mine has 100 hp at the crank although there's less loss through a belt than a shaft. Still, even if the power figures were identical, it's 300 pounds lighter than my Vic. That's significant. I'd like to try one out even if I can't afford one now.

Yes I am, see the Cycle World dyno results for a 2014 RT. Most stock 106 vics dyno high 70's stock and low 90's torque.

[Monkeyman]

Nice, flat torque curve. Stock 106 Vics dyno at more like 85 hp/100 tq although Lloyd (of Lloydz Motorworkz...THE Victory guru) dyno'ed a supercharged 116 (over bored 106) at better than 200 hp. I don't need that kind of power. Honestly, I don't want that kind of power. Having a few more horses on tap in a lighter bike would be kind of nice, though.

Does the R1200RT handle like it looks? Or is it more like the other BMW I was going to test ride? (I've heard the word "porky" referring to the other one more than once.)

[ponch]

Originally Posted by Monkeyman

Nice, flat torque curve. Stock 106 Vics dyno at more like 85 hp/100 tq although Lloyd (of Lloydz Motorworkz...THE Victory guru) dyno'ed a supercharged 116 (over bored 106) at better than 200 hp. I don't need that kind of power. Honestly, I don't want that kind of power. Having a few more horses on tap in a lighter bike would be kind of nice, though.

Does the R1200RT handle like it looks? Or is it more like the other BMW I was going to test ride? (I've heard the word "porky" referring to the other one more than once.)

I just looked up what one bike site dyno'd a vic 106 and it was 78 and 93. Who knows. That's stock too. Almost no one hod rods BMWs, except may be for the S1000RR. It's too much money for too little gain. It's nut's to spend $1500 for a few HP and honestly, it does well enough stock. The way I look at it, if I need more power or something my bike doesn't have, chances are I have the wrong bike. That said, the 2015 S1000RR has 199HP at the crank stock. That's not bad for a naturally aspirated 1 liter bike. Of course I'd never fit on such a contraption.

Someone that can ride will give sportbike riders fits in the twisties with a RT. I've seen it. That flat torque curve makes the bike very tractable. I don't have much trouble getting to the pegs. Just the other day I was making a left turn in a two lane left turn and the light changed as I was coming through. A guy in S1000RR was to my right and he cranked over and cut the turn tight, so I had to also. I was on my left peg and could have touched the ground with my hand if I wanted. The new RT is better than mine. The thing is, guys that call a RT porky are riding 400lb bikes. The thing is, the RT can do it all. Tour, hit the curves, stop well, go well, handle well. It's what the Germans do best and that's make a well designed bike that does everything well. The downsides is that if you don't do the maintenance yourself, it can be pricey depending on the bike. The other thing is some models have nagging problems that take a few years to filter out. I don't think I'd buy a first year model BMW, especially a K1600. The boxers are better as is the F800 series, but the boxers are the easiest to maintain. Just take one for a ride. BMW is very good about demo rides.