ABS BRAKES

[dank]

ABS Brakes

As I entered the corners everything was clear.
Then the woods to the left shot forth two BIG deer.
I squeezed the brakes hard and tried to swerve away.
Though it looked like neither would save the day.
The deer tensed their haunches, prepared for flight
But couldn’t decide to go left or go right.
Then the brakes engaged and hauled me down fast.
With no rear wheel skid, as had happened in the past.
In my truck or the Nomad, right through them I’d have mowed.
Ending with me, guts, and bike all over the road.
But the deer bounded off and I finished my ride.
Thankful for linked ABS brakes that had just saved my hide.

**************
Sure wish Kawasaki would make them an option on Nomads!

I figured people need something new to argue about, and whether or not ABS brakes are better is about as good as car tires, best oil, or best tires.

[macmac]

So far as I can tell ABS creates more distance to stop, unless you hit it stopping. BMW had a bike call back for ABS.

With some practice and some care in a wild bland panic stop you can kill the engine with the red switch and still downshift. Hit the brakes hard enough to leave rubber and hear it, with the wheels still turning.

I would bet I can stop the same weight bike faster with No ABS than a bike with it both from the same speed.

And interlocked brakes is something I will never want. I get to ride on dirt roads, some loose some hard packed, I get to ride on wet grass too. In those places I want nothing to do with ft brakes.

[ringadingh]

I share the same ideas as Mac about ABS on bikes. I have it on my truck, but Im not sure if it helps me. It may help people that can't drive very well maintain control in slippery situations, but I like to have the feel and control myself when riding or driving.

[macmac]

2 years ago my 28 year old son showed up in a Subaru with ABS brakes. he said he was having a bad time stopping it. it was hard winter and so there was a big snow banking not rock solid.

I raced that race towards it and stopped the car just fine with out ABS kicking in.

I did the same thing and mashed the brakes and felt the shuddering ABS and I crashed the car right into that snow banking.

I knew this would happen. No car I ever have will have working ABS brakes ever. I will replace the lines and by-pass the fools work.

This things that are done are for people who don't care to learn how to drive/ride.

Chances are last year when I hit that jeep had there been ABS brakes on a Nad, what ever I said in the post before that accident would have been the last thing I ever said here.

This makes me curious to know what Dan can test from a known 45 mph and stop distance. With 300 pounds of passenger weight. (Me and my wife dressed to ride)

I am sure the speedo said 50 MPH but it is not corrected.

[dank]

I agree with Mac that I would't want linked brakes if I rode dirt roads. But the truth is that if you use the brakes to their maximum potential, perfectly, then and ABS and non-ABS bike will stop in exactly the same distance, because the ABS simply would not kick in. So agreed, if you use the brakes correctly, no need for ABS. they don't hurt, but wouldn't help the perfect rider. HOWEVER......my experience is that when the chips are down I'm not perfect. When I have had to make a true panic stop, and I've only had to a couple of times, like this morning, it is awfully easy to lock up the rear tire, especially as the weight shifts to the front during braking. That is when ABS saves your bacon.

I like the linked brakes on the road because my experience has been that in a real panic stop, not a practice one where I'm planning what I am going to do, my foot tromps the rear brake faster and harder than my hand grabs the front brake. The linked brakes causes the front to do its job in those circumstances. I actually think that is what made the bigger difference this morning. The bike really hauled down from speed fast. It was all I could do to brace myself against the handle bars.

In usual riding I don't notice the linked brakes. It favors the one you actually apply and seems to work well, even in snow.

[phred]

Not true dank, perfect - non ABS braking - will stop quicker and shorter than engaged ABS. Perfect threshold braking allows for 100% of the available traction (friction) to work toward slowing/stopping the vehcile. ABS simply pulses the brakes rapidly, so at times, you're wheels are braking hard, and at others, the brakes have been released by the computer. ABS is made for non-drivers who can't stay off the brake pedal during oh $hit moments.

[dank]

Originally Posted by phred

Not true dank, perfect - non ABS braking - will stop quicker and shorter than engaged ABS. Perfect threshold braking allows for 100% of the available traction (friction) to work toward slowing/stopping the vehcile. ABS simply pulses the brakes rapidly, so at times, you're wheels are braking hard, and at others, the brakes have been released by the computer. ABS is made for non-drivers who can't stay off the brake pedal during oh $hit moments.

Next time read before objecting so strongly! I said if you brake perfectly, they are the same. If you do it perfectly and use all available traction and stopping power, but no more, then the ABS simply doesn't kick in. So for all the pro-level bikers out there who claim they can consistently do that in an emergency situation, ABS and Non-ABS would be the same. The ABS would never kick in and they'd have maximum braking. I said noting about engaged ABS being the same. BUT engaged ABS beats skidding rear tires, which is what most of us end up with in a true panic stop if we are honest. ABS is a technical advance that is for all drivers. You do well if it doesn't kick in AND you get maximum braking, but the odds of hitting exactly on that spot are remote.

[phred]

Fair enough, I took what you said as meaning the ABS system working, but, on 2nd reading, you're talking about ABS never kicking in.
I've never ridden a bike with ABS, but have had many an opportunity to to drive and test cars, both ABS and non-ABS, and can say without a doubt, that propper threshold braking will stop a car quicker and shorter that standing on the brake pedal and relying on any ABS system.

[wiz]

I'd take the ABS. I do practice panic stops at our club class a couple times a year in a controlled emvironment but still that rear tire will lock up on me when I have to hit the binders hard after making some other mistake. Luckily this doesn't happen on a regular basis. Having an ABS system to back up my skills would only be a good thing - heavy cruisers are not the best braking machines on wheels.

[macmac]

Well I am not sure what to say, or how to say it.

Last summer when i hit that jeep if i had ABS brakes I probably would be dead. Since I was on a good state road a paved one, linked brakes would have been a non issue, but i will never have them, since in Cow Hampster there is dirt roads both loose and or hard pack, usually hard pack means summer salts and so also greasy wet. These dirt roads are it to get to some places local. There is no other option that cagin it, or sprouting wings.

ABS is computer controlled and it sees a few things like weight on the wheels, and wheel speed, which is compared in the ecu from the speedo sender, and it decides what wheel speed is, adding in weight or the lack of weight.

If the ABS sees the wheel has stopped, for lack of weight as in the rear brake is nearing a total lock, due to the ft brake was grabbed up hard, or if you are just pulling in to get gas and ride over a side walk, which will reduce the weight on the rear tire the ABS panics and lets the rear breake loose.

Now in my opinion when I want brakes I don't want a ECU letting the rear wheel loose!

Maybe it is the way i use brakes on bikes. A bike is not a cage. it has 2 wheels. Duh.

So you do not pick up a foot and mash the rear brakes pedal. With boards on a bike you toe the pedal and heel the board which gives you controll, and so much controll you can burn rubber with the wheel still turning.

If the rear wheel starts to come around sideways which it will if the rubber on the ground is riding on a sea of hot wet rubber, you can let up some.

In any case in the best panic stops you set the rear brake 0.05 seconds before you bhit the ft brake!

The why is to squat the rear end of the bike DOWN, which makes the bike a little longer. Then take a fist full of ft brake up hard.

It will start burning rubber too, and both wheels will be screeming, but so long asyou are going straight you have the wheels turning.

The next thing to do is hit the red kill switch, cut the engine right off, and get the tranny into 2nd asap, letting the clutch out.

Now you have a chirp added to the screech. That rear will jump and lock and jump and lock each time the gears push the engine over, and that will bite deep into pavement. That will cut wet/dry sand too.

I have saved my hide more than once, with that trick. Any time i do, I need to check my pants for diamonds! (Thanks Cj)

I will never own a thing that has working ABS. I want my wheels to stop when I say and I could care aless about what a computer has to say.

ABS lets go of the brakes.. Not the best idea. Why hit something because the ecu said so?

[skeeter]

I was led to believe on the Voyager that the ABS kicks off under a certain speed. Wouldn't this allow the individual to control the braking preference in slow speed and less than perfect conditions. I traverse the loose dirt, gravel, mud, ruts and general off-road conditions on a regular basis. I don't have ABS but I do have a CT.....

[dank]

Discussion of ABS are always amusing. The fallacious logic used against is is:

1) It isn't as good as perfectly applied brakes where the rider doesn't lock-up the wheels and cause a skid, so I wouldn't have it on a bike interfering with my honed braking skills.

This is a falsehood hidden by a partial truth. It is true that perfectly applied brakes will slightly beat ABS in stopping distance. The implied falsehood is that ABS always kicks in. If the rider applies the brakes perfectly or even less that maximum, then the ABS simply doesn't kick in. So A rider perfectly applying the brakes on a n ABS bike will never have ABS kick in and take control away. So if Mac did all his steps perfectly with superhuman reflexes that control setting brakes to within .005 sec of each other, he wouldn't hit the jeep harder. He stop just the same as always. But if somewhere in there he grabs a bit hard and the tire started to skid, the abs would have simply stepped in and stopped him faster.

2) They keep you from stopping at slow speeds because they delay application of the brakes. they don't kick in at low speeds, besides which, they only kick in IF you lock up the tires and start to skid. They do no delay the initial activation of the brakes when you grab the lever.

3) They are for people who don't want to learn how to do it right. While they probably help such riders, whether one practices stops or not, human error happens and there are situations, such as a hard stop on a rain soaked road, that are hard t practice. ABS is like the reserve fuel when the light comes on. Obviously serious, attentive riders would know how many miles they can go and to gas up, but you get a warning to remind you just in case you are out enjoying a ride on a nice day and forget about it. ABS doesn't replace the brakes or insist that riders then forgo learning how to stop properly. It simply saves your bacon when the chips are down and you err.

I don't actually think the ABS kicked in when the deer ran in front of me. I didn't notice it, but then I was avoiding two large deer, looking for others that might run out behind them, going around a corner, hauling the bike down from speed, swerving left, and checking my mirror to see if the car behind me was going to hit me from behind. All in a very short flash of time. I'm sure the linked brakes helped keep things level and fully utilize the front brake. (They regulate how much they apply front and rear based on how hard I am applying each. I think the Voyager has a similar system.) What I do know is that it was the best panic stop I have ever performed. At 18 I'd have attributed it to my continually increasing prowess as a rider. At 56 I'm more inclined to give the credit to the wise engineers who designed the new brake system.

Each to his own. I'm sold on ABS linked brakes.

[Cajunrider]

I had always wondered how the ABS system would work when dragging the rear brake and feathering the clutch in slow speed parking lot maneuvering. If I understand correctly, the ABS will not kick in at parking lot cornering speeds. In other words, you can lightly drag the rear brake at very slow speeds without the front brake being linked to it?

[AlabamaNomadRider]

I just drag my feet it tends to slow me down just enough.

Hey watch it I'm only kidding. Non ABS on a bike are good enough for me. If you avoid locking it and skidding it will do the stopping in a good enough distance.

I have ABS on the Impala and have seen times when I didn't think I was going to get stopped in time.

[macmac]

Well BMW recalled bikes with ABS. Guiys were crashing into gas pumps a tad to often. As they crossed over a lump called a sidewalk, the effect was a lifted rear wheel, and the ABS kicked on. Then as suddenly as that happened those gas pumps jumped out of the ground! and rammed these bikes hard.

It takes rather a lot for BMW to recall something like ABS brakes.

Like i said any thing that lets go of my brakes when I want them is going away. This is true for everything I own.

The last time a item on one of my vehicals let go of the brakes i went right over a very steep banking, and a very big tree stopped me.

I got out of my plow truck and climbed up over the banking where I just pushed snow several feet more than normal, and all I could see of my truck was the punkin and the tail gate.

That nasty rusty brake line that let my brakes go free came right out, right there, and I was still stuck in lo lo granny gear at a 85 degree angle. That angle did help in the bleeding though since air rises

If my braking was perfect i might not have hit the jeep. I could have missed and even thought about it, but i couldn't see the moose still, and I didn't want to be tangled up with a moose I couldn't see.

My back isn't good, and so i am not sure if i could 'brace' myself enough to take a moose up the , err well you know.

All n' All I did pretty good and think I did better than ABS would have. I would have been miffed bad had I had ABS and it let go and still hit that jeep.

I got a pic of the 82.5 feet of dead straight rubber on the road too.

I did alot better than the jeep driver did too, he never saw the moose, and was on the anchors before he hit it. I just knew something wern't right.

I had to replace a ft fender. He had to replace the whole jeep.

My lesson is at night in moose country at 45 mph 82.5 feet isn't quite enough distance to follow.