Proposed NYC sound ordinance

[cactusjack]

"Borrowed" from another forum...

Bikers won't like sound of this!

BY FRANK LOMBARDI
NYC DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

Thursday, December 11th 2008, 2:18 AM

Vroooom that noisy motorcycle once too often and the city could own it.

In a new bid to stem motorcycle noise, the City Council is set to pass a bill requiring all bikes to sport tags certifying approval by the Environmental Protection Agency.

No EPA tag, you get a ticket, without the officials having to prove the bike exceeded the 80-decibel limit set by the city's noise code.

"Today we go a long way toward taking the squeal out of the hogs," said Peter Vallone (D-Queens), chairing a final bill hearing Wednesday in the Public Safety Committee.

Under the bill, expected to pass the full Council Dec. 18, a first conviction carries a maximum $1,000 fine and temporary confiscation until the penalty is paid.

A second conviction hikes the maximum fine to $2,500 and imposes permanent forfeiture.

NYPD Lt. Daniel Albano testified that existing laws require cops to catch noisy motorcyclists in the act, which is difficult and can entail potentially hazardous chases.

The new measure would let single officers on foot patrol - or other city agents - ticket parked motorcycles, he said.

It gives police "an extra tool to get at what is truly a serious problem," said Councilman Alan Gerson (D-Manhattan), who crafted the bill based on a law in use in Denver.

But biker Bill Ferraro, president of the Union Ironworkers Motorcycle Club, Local 580, testified that "it's unsafe for us to ride when the pipes are too low."

He also said the city can't close its budget gap "with confiscation of bikes and seizure."
---------------------------------------

I don't like that this law singles out motorcycles. Make it all exhaust systems or leave it alone. A Honda Civic with a 6" fart can is as loud as any Harley with Screaming Eagles on it. While they're at it, they should include those awful car audio systems with 6 15" subs pumping 1000 watts of bass you can hear coming a mile away.

That Peter Vallone guy quoted in the article needs to be slapped upside the head. His wife probably ran off with a biker and this is how he exacts his revenge on bikers as a whole.

[nomad561]

Has the EPA come up with a program to tag bikes?
How are you supposed to get a tag without this?
What about people that come in from out of state?
This sounds like another attempt from another pissed off "I don't like bikers" politician to get his 15 minutes of fame.
As far as cutiing down on high speed chases,if they are already running because of a ticket,what do you think they will do facing confiscation?

[dank]

I agree it should be all vehicles, if any. In northern Michigan there are a lot of pickup trucks that are as loud as the bikes. My preference would be no regulation and bikers and others to switch to acting responsibly in this regard.

But I also have to say bikers as a group have brought this on themselves. It is simple stupidity to think they can ignore the growing resentment of the loud exhaust systems and corporately flaunt their supposed right to make excessive noise and not expect the rest of society to respond by enforcing their reasonable right to not have that excessive noise imposed on them. I believe this is the "your right to swing your fist stops at the end of my nose" concept being enforced. I'm sure Honda Civics would be included if there were swarms of them running around with open pipes.

[dantama]

Denver was the first to come up with this ordinance. I haven't heard of any fallout from bikes actually being ticketed yet, and I still hear obnoxiously loud bikes going by my place.

[dank]

Denver was the first to come up with this ordinance. I haven't heard of any fallout from bikes actually being ticketed yet, and I still hear obnoxiously loud bikes going by my place.

Dan, how do you get the sticker so you comply with the ordinance? Are stock pipes set to go or do you have to go have them measured for decibels?

[rickyboy]

I also agree that if you go after the bikes, you go after the "Civic's" and such with the huge exhausts and that have those "woofers" just pounding. Here where I am there seems to be a big revival of the "muscle cars". They contribute big time to the noise levels. Not to mention commercial trucks that use the "jake brake" inside residential neighborhoods. We don't have anything like they're imposing in NYC. I'm sure there are limit's, but no enforcement, ...unless you're being pulled over for something else you've done. I've seen a couple of articles in "mags" that lean towards Harley's, that say it's stupid to push the envelope with loud pipes. And if it continues those with the obnoxious loud pipes are going to screw all their brethren on two wheels.

[dhomoney]

I guess so much for the land of the free. What a nation of ninnies we have become. This law, and any support for any type of law against any and all vehicles is just lame and shows just how pathetic we have become. I would laugh at the National Anthem when the aforementioned line is sung, if I wasn't to busy crying at the loss. Our founders would just be sickened by what we have turned into. We, generally speaking, are pathetic.

[dantama]

Denver was the first to come up with this ordinance. I haven't heard of any fallout from bikes actually being ticketed yet, and I still hear obnoxiously loud bikes going by my place.

Dan, how do you get the sticker so you comply with the ordinance? Are stock pipes set to go or do you have to go have them measured for decibels?

Your stock pipes have a stamp that is stamped into the metal with an EPA verbage.

The after market ones don't have the EPA stamp. The law is already on the books everywhere that emission/exhaust systems can't be tampered with. That is why you see the "for offroad use only" type disclaimers when such is advertised.

But there isn't much teeth to the law. To enforce it, laws on the local level get enacted to "catch" offenders. On cars there is often a Sate of county inspection for license plates that checks for such things.

Bike have been getting a free ride compared to the enforcement on cars (most car inspections are for the EPA items from the catalytic converters to the engine, hence the coffee cans on the far end getting through).

Now some municipalities are deciding not to give bikes a free ride compared to cars. I understand some peoples feeling about a loss of freedom, but it's the same thing that you have been dealing with on your car for years. There is no place the I've lived in that would allow cars newer than the 70's to run a straight exhaust from the engine to the back. Now some cities are enforcing on bikes what has been the law all along; just a law that wasn't enforced.

[phenrichs]

We have a similar law here in SD. It has more to do with modified exhaust. Basically states you cannot have modified mufflers. So my intended bafflectomy = illegal exhaust. I have a buddy with straight pipes on his harley. They are not modified. But if a cop has balls enough to shove his night stick up there and see no baffles they could give him a ticket. Although the court would dismiss it because that is how they came out of the box.

[rksaw]

I guess so much for the land of the free. What a nation of ninnies we have become. ... Our founders would just be sickened by what we have turned into. We, generally speaking, are pathetic.

I cannot agree with you more. We are getting soft and are due for some hard times in the future.

[nomad]

the guys wife probably ran off with a biker........:)

[Top Cat]

Loud pipes <s>save lives </s>turn non motorcycle people against all motorcycles.

[dhomoney]

And so the thing to do TC is put a law against them since we don't like it. That mentality is one of the many reasons I left NY.

[glwilson]

No offense; but I travel to Manhattan often; and I, personally, would rather the "loud-pipe" law be inforced in NYC.

Given the echo against the tunnels of tall buildings lining the streets it is entirely obnoxious; obtrusive; offensive; unecessary; and just plain deafening.

Sorry if I pissed someone off with my feelings; but try to walk down the streets of NYC with a loud-bike screaming by you and I'll bet you'll agree with me.

[dhomoney]

glwilson,

I have, I don't like it anyhow, but I sure as sh*t will not advocate a law against it. Just because something is annoying, offensive, and distasteful to you or me, doesn't mean a law should be made against it. Freedom is defending things you don't like to ensure your rights aren't infringed upon. Pastor Martin Niemoller said it best.....

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

[ponch]

Where ya from? I hailed from LI. The People's Republic of NY. OK must be a big change.



And so the thing to do TC is put a law against them since we don't like it. That mentality is one of the many reasons I left NY.

[Top Cat]

And so the thing to do TC is put a law against them since we don't like it. That mentality is one of the many reasons I left NY.
I'll be the first to admit I hate loud pipes. Most members who have been here awhile know my position on them. Some agree with me, some don't. But I have said it in the past and I will tell you in case you missed it.
We are a minority. When the minority pisses off the majority the majority almost always wins. I saw this coming and I'm not the smartest guy in the world by a long shot. If I saw it coming why would anyone put noxiously loud pipes on their bike and act like jerks to piss people off. Hey look at me I'm blowing your eardrums out and I don't care. Well, guess what they will care when the town board of their town makes them park one mile from town and walk or take the bus in.
I'm not saying to pass a law would be my first choice. But I knew it would come to this if the immature loud pipe fraternity didn't come to their senses.
If I could see it they should have seen it also.
As a last note dhomoney , what do you suggest be done, nothing? Let it go on in the name of your personal freedom. Or do you have a solution? I'm listening.

[jonsamson]

What would be really nice if someone made some pipes that could be quiet in the city, then opened up loud in the country and freeway. If there were some way to just push a button and make them soft and then push a button again and make them loud. I would love to buy a set of pipes like that.
-Jon

[rksaw]

What would be really nice if someone made some pipes that could be quiet in the city, then opened up loud in the country and freeway. If there were some way to just push a button and make them soft and then push a button again and make them loud. I would love to buy a set of pipes like that.
-Jon

Now that would be an interesting set of pipes...and expensive I bet. Jon, you could probably make some money on those if you can figure out how to fab them to use, and then bypass, the baffles.

[dank]

I have to go with TC on this one. A free society is not just everybody doing anything that pleases them, as dhomoney wants to imply. That is anarchy. Citizenship in a truly free society carries with it the concept of respecting the rights of others. Many bikers have forgotten that when it comes to their mufflers. And the consequence of abrogating that concept of person responsibility in a free society is typically some type of regulation imposed by the majority.

I wish the loud muffler crowd would come to their senses on this before we start getting a patchwork of undesirable and ill thought out regulations all over the country.

[rewindgy]

There are some that fit's Harley's - I believe thye are called "Peacemakers". They have a motor or solenoid that you operate with a switch. Open and the pipes are straight thru and closed they are fully baffled. I heard they don't make any power and really don't work that well in either open or closed postition.

[rflnomad]

What would be really nice if someone made some pipes that could be quiet in the city, then opened up loud in the country and freeway. If there were some way to just push a button and make them soft and then push a button again and make them loud. I would love to buy a set of pipes like that.
-Jon
Actually some cars in the 60s HAD them! The exhaust 'cut-out'. The one for the 70 GTO is being re-produced now and is not cheap. But it is vacuum operated like before.
Sounds like something to look into...

[skyhookman]

Went to NYC many years ago on a greyhound bus. Don't think I'll ever go back. On a bike definetly not. I will go to Denver again sometime. I'm running stock, and actually would, like quiter pipes then these.

[nomad561]

It sounds like another law made to apease the masses that eventually won't be enforced just like countless other laws on the books across this great country of ours.
While I agree that the "loud pipes save lives" mentality is a joke,riding responsibly saves lives,I don't think this will make much of an impact. What is going to stop riders that want to have loud pipes from installing baffles for the sticker and then remove them for riding the rest of the time.If I'm not mistaken,I believe there is already a noise ordinance on the books in NY.We need to enforce the laws on the books instead of making more "political laws". This(IMHO) is nothing more than politicians saying "see I am doing something to improve your quality of life.Now reelect me".
You have to remember that a politician's primary job is "to get reelected" Everything they do will be towards that goal.

[dhomoney]

Where ya from? I hailed from LI. The People's Republic of NY. OK must be a big change.



And so the thing to do TC is put a law against them since we don't like it. That mentality is one of the many reasons I left NY.

I grew up in Ohio and spent two years in Rochester, NY.

[dhomoney]

I have to go with TC on this one. A free society is not just everybody doing anything that pleases them, as dhomoney wants to imply. That is anarchy. Citizenship in a truly free society carries with it the concept of respecting the rights of others. Many bikers have forgotten that when it comes to their mufflers. And the consequence of abrogating that concept of person responsibility in a free society is typically some type of regulation imposed by the majority.

I wish the loud muffler crowd would come to their senses on this before we start getting a patchwork of undesirable and ill thought out regulations all over the country.

I am in no way an anarchist. In this country the rights of citizens, whether majority or minority, take precedence over the desires of either. That is why, while I hate it, I would defend the right of the KKK to spew their hatred; it preserves my right to argue against them. Nannyism always feels good, especially if you are in agreement with it, but in the end it makes it so much easier to take/regulate the next thing that some politico wants to have control over. Furthermore is a $1000 or more fine a punishment that fits the crime? Noise is now a reason someone can take your property? I think not and all this at the discretion of a meter maid or even a cop? Asset forfeiture should require, at a bear minimum, due process of law.

[dhomoney]

As a last note dhomoney , what do you suggest be done, nothing? Let it go on in the name of your personal freedom. Or do you have a solution? I'm listening.


Does something really need to be done? Does NYC not have a few more pressing issues than loud pipes? Really? I have spent quite a bit of time in NYC and frankly loud pipes were never a concern for me. I have friends and colleuges in NYC and funny I have never heard them complain about the noise of motorcycles in NYC, they have their complaints but this doesn't even register in their top 10 or 20. What this is a further taking of a right and a scheme to allow NYC to take your property (either money or motorcycle) without due process of law and to further fatten their coffers. Sadly it would appear that people who don't like loud pipes agree we should just make laws to take them away. What happens when they come after some thing you love?

I don't think this is a problem that needs solving. I don't think a law is needed above and beyond what is in place now. NYC has many issues, but loug motorcycle pipes are not one that needs dealt with anytime soon or ever.

Something to ponder, does your desire not to hear a loud noise trump that of the rider who wishes to express themselves through loud pipes? Just because you don't like it, does that than engender you the authority to take it away? Is that not the definition of a Nanny State? We are headed down that road very fast. Wait till Obama and ilk like him have setup Nationalized Health Care and than they can ban you bike because it has a higher risk and therefore must be banned to save the public coffers, or because they don't like them. You should defend everyones freedoms and not piss them away so easily.

[cactusjack]

If this was a true "noise ordinance", it would include all sources of loud noise, motorcycles, cars, boomboxes, trucks, alien spacecraft, chain saws, etc. But it does not. It is therefore an anti-motorcycle ordinance, since it is directed solely at motorcycles. The nature of the ordinance is discriminatory, because it singles out one particular segment of the population. Would they propose a law stating black people can't play loud rap music? Of course not. That would imply any group other than black people could play loud rap music with impunity. That's discrimination. What difference does it make if the source of the noise is a motorcycle, a car, or a garbage truck? Noise is noise and the law should apply equally to everyone, not just bikers. This is just the work of some politician who has an axe to grind with people who ride.

[dank]

[quote author=topcat board=general thread=8168 post=139834 time=1229052543]
Is that not the definition of a Nanny State? We are headed down that road very fast. Wait till Obama and ilk like him have setup Nationalized Health Care and than they can ban you bike because it has a higher risk and therefore must be banned to save the public coffers, or because they don't like them. You should defend everyones freedoms and not piss them away so easily.

To me you have a very peculiar and lopsided sense of defending everyones' freedom.

Wouldn't preserving everyone's freedom include freedom for a group to express itself by saying no to overly loud pipes? Why do you not equally defend that? Seems to me both groups are exercising freedom, but you are wanting to restrict its practice by the group with which you disagree.

This is not an issue of freedom. The issue is accepting the responsibility for reasonable behavior toward others that goes along with personal freedom. But I do agree that failure in that arena often leads to restricted freedom, which none of us want to see.

[01nomad]

They introduced a law in this one-horse-town last year that said that if the Police can hear a motorcycle at 50 feet, to ticket it as a violation. By the time it finally past it's last reading it was up to 300 feet. I think that's fair. I haven't hear of anyone getting a ticket and think it was more about keeping a respectable throttle. Even my bike gets loud when I get into it and now it is quieter here at closing time.

[dantama]

If this was a true "noise ordinance", it would include all sources of loud noise, motorcycles, cars, boomboxes, trucks, alien spacecraft, chain saws, etc. But it does not. It is therefore an anti-motorcycle ordinance, since it is directed solely at motorcycles.

It isn't anti motorcycle, because it is already being enforced on cars.

It is interesting to me that so many of you have swallowed it on your car, but not your bike. All of you with a modern car, try putting hooker headers on it, then straight pipes down to some glass packs. It won't work, and you'll get stopped. "The man" has already done it to you in your car, and you just accepted it.

So the EPA has set standards for bikes long ago. One of the standards has to do with sound. All bike have to leave the factory with exhaust that meet a specific sound level. And they carry an epa stamp. Check your Nomad, you have an epa stamp on your pipes. When Harley went to the twin cam 88 motor, they purposely made some changes to make the engine itself quieter, so that the exhaust could be louder and still pass.

So, there is nothing new going on here, your already doing it with your car. You have to keep the epa equivalents on your car and you are already doing it. The law has always (in modern times) said that you can't take your pipes off, its just that nobody was enforcing it, the law was still their though.

So some Neanderthals who thought that obnoxious straight pipes that let everyone for blocks around know that they are passing through (I live near a busy street, with a light a couple of blocks away, I can hear some bikes before they get to the light, so 3 blocks away. Those Neanderthals have pissed enough people off that laws that were already there are starting to be enforced.

You have had to keep your car epa legal already, but on your bike the authorities have been "granting" us a free pass and looking the other way as we break the law. Now they are starting to enforce it, same as they do on cars.

[mrfuni]

I can't stand loud pipes. http://s2.images.proboards.com/angry.gif:(" title=">:(" border="0"/>

When I'm on a group ride and I'm behind someone with loud pipes it's annoying and distracts from the solitude of the ride.

Like anything else if nobody is offended so be it, but if you infringe on my space and desire for peace and quiet, it should be outlawed. There...I said it...

[glwilson]

glwilson,

I have, I don't like it anyhow, but I sure as sh*t will not advocate a law against it. Just because something is annoying, offensive, and distasteful to you or me, doesn't mean a law should be made against it. Freedom is defending things you don't like to ensure your rights aren't infringed upon. Pastor Martin Niemoller said it best.....

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

Got your point, and am not trying to be argumentive -- but it is completely irratating and obnoxious -- especially in the "echo-chamber" of NYC.

Regarding the intrusion of rights... I would argue that loud-pipes are an intrusion of my rights.

If not; then the world should allow my right to take a sh*t on the streets.

[Kawhead]

I have heard some of the few Ahole's out there with the loud pipes tell me that they have loud pipes to piss people off. Their attitude is if grandpa don't like it let him try to take 'em off so I can wup his ass They ain't the brightest folks in the world and there's no reasoning with them. And look what happens as a result. So I'm willing to let the Nazi's have the one's with the loud pipes. http://s2.images.proboards.com/cheesy.gif Wup their ass for messing with your bike. There's some attitude. http://s2.images.proboards.com/cheesy.gif

[nomad561]

Without personal responsibility,there will always have to be laws.
While I don't want goverment intrusion anymore than necessary,unless people start taking responsibility for their actions,the goverment will have to step in.
My bike isn't quiet by any means,but You can't hear it more than a short walk away and when I am in an enclosed space,I try to keep it at a minimum. Bikes that can be heard 3,4 or 5 blocks away are TOO LOUD and you have gone way beyond expressing yourself.

[flavor]

I wonder. How loud are we talking? Are we talking stock Vance & Hines, straights? What?

I grew up in NYC, Queens. Moved to RI in '84. Rode motorcycles since '74. Never encountered an issue with loud pipes where people really complained. Rode with a lot of Jap bikes that had headers etc. Big back then. Don't remember loud being an issue. When we rode in groups we were going somewhere and even if we were loud it was only as we passed by.

If a group is pulling hole shots in one area you deserve the rath the police can bring on you. I would like to think that's the reason
why there are issues with pipes. Being respectful is the key. A lot of muscle cars back then also. It's the same issues.

IMHO Respect even with straights can work. I don't think every cop feels that way though.

Again wondering who feels if it's not stock, "it's too loud".

[cactusjack]

One of the key points of this proposed law is that they don't have to hear your bike to find you in compliance/violation. There's no sound level requirements. The pipes have to have the EPA tag on them, which would imply stock pipes are the only acceptable pipes. So if you're debaffled, you are probably okay.

[flavor]

That just absolutely sucks. How do they get around the fact that exhaust systems need to be replaced. In cars they replace with aftermarket exhausts?

[dhomoney]

How about the punishment fitting the crime? $1500 1st offense for sound? Property forfeiture on the second? Really? That is sad.

[dantama]

One of the key points of this proposed law is that they don't have to hear your bike to find you in compliance/violation. There's no sound level requirements. The pipes have to have the EPA tag on them, which would imply stock pipes are the only acceptable pipes. So if you're debaffled, you are probably okay.

I don't know if it has ever even been used in Denver (the pipe law). But you are right, the reason it was enacted was because it was easy to enforce. No need for a decibel meter and a measuring tape. Just look the pipe over and see if it has the EPA stamp. I think ours is on the pipe, under the bag.

The way it works here in theory is that a cop will never even be looking to see the stamp unless you do something to get his attention with your sound. If it sounds loud enough to make him think that it's not the stock pipes, he has probable cause and can pull you over and look.

I think if you rode with Vance & Hines pipes in a low rpm manner, you couldn't catch their attention. Do it really rolling on the throttle, and have a cop with nothing else to do, and you might get pulled over to have a look for the stamp.

Do the bafflectomy and you could probably roll on the throttle all you want.

[Blue Rebel]

I have V&H pipes without baffles. I really like the sound and I don't do this to p*ss people off.
In the wide open road, I run loud, but in the city and in neighborhoods, I stay off the throttle.

I don't have anything against those who do not like the loud pipes, but I have always ran loud pipes on my Truck, Jeep, and motorcycles, never had trouble with the law. I do it, because its a sound I like. Actually a few weeks ago in El Paso, ran past a bike cop on a freeway and I got a thumbs up. But I was not running obnoxiously loud.

There was an article posted in the Hooligans forum; in Oakland, CA. The Motorcycle police were granted to change to louder pipes. There was a study on the noise factor and it was supposedly proven, "loud pipes save lives". The study found that this was true and also proved that it did not affect hearing.
(So they say).

I'm mixed on all the reviews, but I tend to agree, if you are going to hit bikers for this, then it should be across the board to include cars, loud subwoofers, etc....

I know you all have indicated their has been law on cars for some time, but I have yet to see any car stopped for having loud pipes, or for having the loud subwoofers, with so much bass, that my windows just shake and my car vibrates when they pass me.

This is an interesting debate and definitely has a lot of good opinions with different directions one could side on.

But we are all different and have different tastes. To each there own and I agree there are those who ruin it for the rest of us. Only takes one bad apple to spoil the whole bushel.

[Cajunrider]

I don't have loud pipes on my bike, just the bafflectomy. I do however like the sound of baffled aftermarket pipes. I spent a couple of weeks in Manhattan and the only really loud noises I remember well were emergency sirens and constant obnoxious taxi cab drivers sitting on their horns. Don't remember any loud motorcycles but wasn't listening for them either.

[flavor]

Wanna talk about loud noises in NYC? Lets talk about the sanitation workers picking up the garbage at 4:30 in the morning.

You won't be sleeping when they go by your house.

Ticket them............