Motorcycle braking analogy

[flavor]

Try a little experiment. Take a bicycle that has front and rear brakes, and while walking along side of it drag the rear brake only. Then do the same thing dragging the front brake.

Then repeat but his time locking up the rear break only. Now repeat once again just locking up the front brake.

It's a great eye opener. You'll find if using just the rear break the rear tire breaks lose with little breaking but, when using the front the tire doesn't break loose as easy. Also note how much easier it is the stop with the front brake vs. the rear. If your rear brakes wear out a lot faster you may be too heavy on the rear. Also when you negotiate a turn and take it a little too fast, remember to be heavier on your front brakes.

[dogdoc]

I use my front brake alot more than my rear(may not be kosher) but it works for me, if you take a turn too fast and use your front brake flavor you might end up on the ground, IMO.

[Top Cat]

If I go into a turn to fast I stay the hell off the front brake. I use the rear very lightly. Using the front brake in a turn, in my opinion, is a good way to slide the front tire out from under you.

[dantama]

Braking is all about the traction pie. If traction were a pie, you can divide it up any way you want to, between braking, cornering, unused reserve traction. As long as you don't exceed the total amount of traction, you can divide it up any way you want to. Do note that pavement surface and suspension reactions influence the total amount of traction.

So if you were going in a straight line, you could use a tremendous about of traction just for braking. Throw a corner into the mix and you have to take some away from braking and give it to cornering. But cornering doesn't use all of the available traction, so there is still some left over for braking.

I have never lost traction with a front tire in a paved corner ever. Never, Never, Never. Every corner that I have been around in my entire life has had traction left over.

I have never ran out of traction for the front tire in a corner while braking either. It would be possible, but I've never done it, and I routinely brake with a front brake in corners.

One thing that is more likely to perhaps be a problem is the effect of suspension upset while braking in a corner. The forks will dive if braking hard, and that will change the geometry of the steering and upset the dynamics and perhaps cause you to exceed traction, but I've never even been close. But theoretically it is possible.

When I bomb a canyon on my bike, as opposed to a casual ride, I fly up to corners hard, brake and accelerate back out. I'm often braking with the front brake in corners. Now put a passenger on and I'm trying to coast or brake speed off prior to the corner and mildly accelerate through them. Two different approaches depending on what I'm doing and who's with me.

So front braking in a corner is perfectly fine and useful, as long as you don't exceed the traction reserves. And you have to be braking pretty hard to do that.

So if you really need to stop in a corner, say an approaching car is in your lane, stand it up straight and do maximum braking. That way no traction will be used for cornering and all the traction can be used for getting rid of speed.

[dantama]

Here's a discussion we had on maximum braking in the safety forum for anyone who missed it and is interested in more.

click here (http://kawanow.proboards77.com/index.cgi?board=safety&action=display&thread=2507)

[flavor]

Studies have shown that the average person cannot control front and rear to an optimum. So since 70 to 80% of braking is done with the front brake, it's best to concentrate on the front brake. That does not mean not to use the rear. (Situation taken into consideration). http://webbikeworld.com/Motorcycle-Safety/braking-tips.htm

The point of discussion was intended to give an easy way to feel braking differnces to riders who may be too heavy on the rear brake.

[flavor]

Dan:
I agree 1000%. I've read about the traction pie before. I've also straightened up a bike more than once (in my younger years) while in a turn hit the brakes hard, and gone back into the turn again, and survived. Lucky. I;m not sure how many lives I have left.

Flavor

[bosko]

+1 on the traction pie. I've had the opportunity to taste the traction pie. Taste like dirt. http://s2.images.proboards.com/tongue.gif

[dantama]

+1 on the traction pie. I've had the opportunity to taste the traction pie. Taste like dirt. http://s2.images.proboards.com/tongue.gif

The only time I've run afoul of the traction pie, it was on dirt. Yup, tasted like dirt too.

If one routinely uses brakes in curves or corners, obviously he/she is not getting slowed down properly prior to entering said curve. Roadracers rarely brake once actually leaned over, but if they do it is trail braking using the rear brake. Flat track racers for many years did not have brakes on them at all, and now have only rear brakes.
The way I was taught 40 some years ago was to get slowed down and then accelerate through the curve or corner. I still believe that is the proper way and the quickest.

[aj]

Riding at low speed in the dirt, in a turn, in front of strangers, FRONT BRAKE! - mud pie (and red face)

Most people in a panic will over brake the rear and under brake the front. Nothing wrong with using the front brake as dan said. Its alot easier to lock the rear brake. If you haven't tried doing so yet, see how hard you can actually pull the front brake before it locks, you don't need to be going very fast to find out the front brake is far superior to the rear.

[moenko]

Absolutely agree!!! Front brake is supplementing the rear brake (for me). It's safer and also cheaper that way, only have to change ONE set of pads on the rear brake ;)

Every MSF course teaches you to use both brakes simultaneously and I still think that is the best practice if uncertain. The only thing that has to be "learned" is the amount of braking to be applied to each brake to make the stop in the necessary distance.


If I go into a turn to fast I stay the hell off the front brake. I use the rear very lightly. Using the front brake in a turn, in my opinion, is a good way to slide the front tire out from under you.

[dantama]

Absolutely agree!!! Front brake is supplementing the rear brake (for me). It's safer...



If I go into a turn to fast I stay the hell off the front brake. I use the rear very lightly. Using the front brake in a turn, in my opinion, is a good way to slide the front tire out from under you.

Moenko, will you give more detials on the safer part?

[jussmatt]

I'm w/ Dan on this one... I use the Front Brake in corners from time to time, but like Dan also said, it depends on the riding style at the time. If I'm by myself and riding hard, then I'll use the Front more ...and the Rear more too for that matter... but if I'm 2 up and take a leisure ride, then I'm less likely to use the Front since my speeds already slower.

All that being said.....there are some corners that I take on my daily commute that have some loose gravel in them.... Obviously in those corners, I make sure I'm going much slower, thus not needing the Front brake.

[moenko]

Dan, I was referring to braking in curves or while cornering (should have specified). I know more than a handful of riders who overused the front brake in a curve and it acted like a magnet, pulling them right down to the ground, especially dangerous on wet roads - toss some leaves in the mix - bingo! Again, I am talking braking in curves here.

On a straight, I like to start gently on the rear brake, use engine braking and then use the front brake to finalize the stop. That's a personal preference and fared me well. That's probably why I have to change my rear pads this weekend while the front ones are looking pretty new still.

Lastly, and that is MHO, a rear skid is way easier controlled than a front-wheel skid! In the end I think it is still best to use both brakes simultanously and once one has developed a feel for the braking power that each brake supplies, everyone can make a safe slow-down (or stop) in any situation. I have taken both the basic and advanced MSF courses and feel quite comfortable slowing my horse down ;)





Absolutely agree!!! Front brake is supplementing the rear brake (for me). It's safer...




Moenko, will you give more detials on the safer part?

[lw]

The slice of the traction pie I ate last year was sandy asphalt. I definitely don't want another helping.

[phenrichs]

Dan, I was referring to braking in curves or while cornering (should have specified). I know more than a handful of riders who overused the front brake in a curve and it acted like a magnet, pulling them right down to the ground, especially dangerous on wet roads - toss some leaves in the mix - bingo! Again, I am talking braking in curves here.



Very true! There is a certain finesse to be learned about hard braking in hard turns. Once you figure out that sweet spot where your bike reaches an angle of pitch that is nearly touching the ground you never forget it. Once you have that information you can instinctively brake hard into corners.
By this I mean your brain will throw an alarm telling you that:
A. You are going too fast
B. You are leaned to the limit
It is at this point you can react by straightening up just a bit so that you can brake hard without the bike getting sucked into the vortex of the turn. You may need to adjust for speed and repeat. When you get slowed to an acceptable level you can throw yourself comfortably and confidently back into the corner and power through it.

If you watch superbike racing you will see this often. Especially if it is raining. I know from experience that if you know that sweet spot this is a very effective and doable technique.
The trick is the sweet spot and not straightening up to the point of oversteering back the other direction.

[flavor]

Boy am I glad I started this....................

Situations differ, but I believe motrocycle road racers rarely use the rear break.

Anyway, my intention was to make all you fellow riders think and discuss.

Hello all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[moenko]

Hello Flavor LOL... nothing like a good discussion, just that everybody has learned it a different way. At the MSF Courses, which I believe to be the best courses I have ever taken in my life, we were taught that if we have to come to a sudden stop in a curve, you straighten the bike out FIRST!!! Then brake with both brakes (without losing traction or skidding if possible) until you come to a stop. Not once was the front brake the preferred or only method of braking, it was always a combination of the two to achieve the safest and most effective deceleration. Again, worked for me and I have no reason to doubt a teacher who rode motorcycles when I was still in diapers and trains motorcycle cops (who, by the way, in ultra-slow maneuvering/turning use a bit of rear brake for stability) ;)

[jayc]

I think it should be mentioned, the difference between braking (stopping) and lightly applying the brakes just to slow down in a curve. While it is always best to finish your braking before entering the curve (and accelerate out) sometimes this isn't possible.

[moenko]

That's true and a given. I was just surprised to hear that a few fellas here seem to use front brake more than rear (under normal conditions). But that is probably a preference and as long as it's dry and on a straight, not a problem. I do on the bike as I do in my truck - I anticipate a stop and slow down and use the least amount of brakes to come to a halt, but I do start out with slight rear brake, then supplement with front - just a personal preference. That's why I just came out of the garage putting new pads on the rear after 10,600 miles and the fronts are still as good as new ;)


I think it should be mentioned, the difference between braking (stopping) and lightly applying the brakes just to slow down in a curve. While it is always best to finish your braking before entering the curve (and accelerate out) sometimes this isn't possible.

[macmac]

I can ride like Doc way up at the top, basicly lazy on ft brake only sometimes when I need to slow a little bit easy.

When something calls for more brake i set the rear 1/2 second before I come on HARD with the ft, and ease off the rear unless I am going to stop.

This way I lower the bike with the rear, and then lessen the dive in the ft. Once the suspention is down it won't go back up even if you let off the rear. On clean good paved roads i can corner this way.

Wet, loose, and other poor surfaces are another thing.

Edited to clean up meaningless typo. sorry

[burkazoid]

Just want to throw my two cents in on this discussion...

I use the front brake quite a bit, definitely more than the rear, unless of course, I am going through a turn, or about to do so. I've had to perform a couple of emergency stops on the nomad (which doesn't exactly stop on a dime) and as long as I'm lined up straight I hit the hell out of that front brake first and probably at least nearly a second passes before my foot has come up and hit the back brake. I've never had any problems yet.

Also, I don't brake during turns, although admittedly I don't have near the years experience riding like many here, and maybe just haven't been in enough situations yet that called for it. I've always felt very uncomfortable braking through turns, front or back. It even feels like the back end is going to slide out from under me. Weird, I know.

At any rate, I just do like they say in the motorcycle riders manual: slow look lean roll. Hasn't failed me yet.

[b2]

Some great (fun) discussion here.. good reminders on important stuff.

I learnt about the traction pie when I was 8 year old riding a Honda XR75 on the dirt.. face full of pie.. and mud.. and sand.. and sticks.

In a CASUAL slow down I typically tap the rear brake a few times before I really start slowing too much, just to wake up the driver behind me... right hand bliping the trottle on the downshift as an added wake up call to those behind.. Hello ?? Put down the cell phone and pay attention !

If I'm in any kind of "alert" situation.. slowing quickly without being an emergency, I will grab a bit of front brake straight away, shift the balance of the bike on to the front wheel a little to maximize the front traction if I really need to dig in... not too much, just enough to change the attitude of the bike.

The in-corner thing has many variables - approach speed, surface, incline/decline.. I'd say I've use both front and back at times, althought never in anger. I probably mostly use them together in a corner, and very gently. As has been said above, if you really need to slow down in corner then you probably need to think about getting it straight up first.. assuming there is room before you hit the armco http://s2.images.proboards.com/shocked.gif

I've tested my rear brake to the point of locking (in "controlled conditions") but not the front.. I'm too worried about dropping it.. However I do think that like most things, its a skill you need to practice, so that its a reflex when you really need it.

I try to practice emergency stops with front and back together, but its hard to do unless you have a good clean bit of road with no one around. I guess thats what the MSF course if for !

Brian

[moenko]

^^^ Brian, good points. Not sure if you took the Basic MSF course, that's a great way to start. The advanced course it a bit more challenging and on your own bike, but that's what makes it so important. You learn techniques that (I firmly believe) may save your life or at least a wreck one day. I usually never have to brake in turns unless there's some unexpected obstacle on the road. A good rider slows down some before the turn and keeps the speed at a pace where you can safely see the remainder of the curve and can stop the bike if necessary. Okay, I have driveled too much about my habits, now just reading what others do or say LOL

[b2]

Moenko, I did the basic course to get my license.. had to, as I didn't own a bike at the time so it was the only way. It was good.. emergency braking on the little 125cc bikes was actually FUN !

Actually, being able to experiment with the dynamics on a bike that small / light really was interesting.. sort of like the bicycle analogy that started this whole thread.

Would like to do the advanced course... I'm sure it would be good for me. I have plenty of bad habits and have only a few thousand miles on the Nomad (or bikes of that weight).. so even though I feel at home on the bike, I'm sure I'd have a pretty big chance of screwing it all up big time if a real emergency presented itself ! LOL.. should remember that next time I was to ride in a t-shirt..

BTW.. just heard last night about a friend with a Fatboy that ran into the bad of a F250 that stopped suddenly a few days ago. The guy recently lost his job, so no health insurance (luckily no broken bones) and he only had limited insurance, for the 'other vehicle', not his own bike.. AND the bike is financed.. now that is dumb, riding with insufficient insurance on a bike that is on monthly payments for 3 years, and without health insurance. I'll slap him when I see him.

Brian

[dantama]

I'll post my braking advice from the other thread, then give my summation of this thread at the end.

In an emergency you want to get the most that you can out of your bikes ability to stop. Here's what I know about stopping a motorcycle. If anyone else has anything more to add, please do.

Don't begin by "grabbing" the brake. Begin like you would do with any stop, but get progressively stronger pressure on the front brake after the initial pull.

The forks will start compressing from weight transfer from the rear of the bike. Weight will move from the rear onto the front, when this happens the front tire will have an increase in traction ability, and at the same time the rear will have a decrease in traction ability.

Because of that, as you give a firmer pull on the front brake, you need to lessen the pressure on the rear brake. I find modulating the rear brake more difficult on a Nomad because you are picking up so much of your foot to reach the brake, that its hard to modulate less pressure. Might not be hard for everyone, but I've found it easier on bikes with pegs that supported the main part of my foot and I was just pivoting to press the brake.

If you do lock the rear brake up when the rear becomes less weighted, it's best to keep it locked all the way to the stop. You can release it if you are lined up completely straight between the front tire and rear. If the rear is out of line too much, you run the risk of causing a violent high side when you let off the rear brake and it regains traction while out of line.

High sides can be very violent, so it's best to just keep the rear wheel locked till you stop if it does lock.

It's hard to know where full front braking lies, and you want to get all you can out of it without locking it.

When it gets right near full capacity, it will make a slight roaring sound. Not a squeal, more of a dull roar. Ideal is to get up to that noise, but not go beyond it. Locking up is just beyond it.

The amount of pressure you use on the front brake lever towards the end of the stop will be far greater than the pressure in the first little bit of the stop. As the extra weight comes forward you can steadily increase your pull on the lever. You can keep increasing it till you hear that muffled roar, and more pressure still to maintain the roar.

If you squeezed the lever at the beginning with the same effort that you can at the end, you would lock the tire up. You have to progressively get there.

As said before, as you get more and more lever effort on the front, you need less and less on the rear in order for it to not lock up. At the beginning of the stop the rear is contributing a fair amount of braking, towards the end of an emergency stop it doesn't contribute much at all. Visualize a sport bike doing a stoppie, the rear is contributing zero there.

[dantama]

That is the technique and the way of thinking about it that I recommend, but here are some thoughts specifically on this thread.

There are many ways to get the "best" results a lot of times. All of them can be correct depending on the situation. Some will say how racers do it, as proof of only one right way. Do keep in mind that there are different tactics for different situations and motivations.

Racers have one overriding desired and aim. To get around the track faster than anyone else. If any situation has a tolerable risk, but is a few tenths faster, they'll go for it. Getting around the track faster is what matters. Does that mean that we all have to do the same on a ride up the canyon? Not in my opinion, we have different motivations.

When my wife is with me, my motivation is to make her feel safe and still have some pleasure for me. I glide through corners without using brakes in that situation.

On my own, and in an aggressive mood, I fly scraping floorboards often. If I slowed prior to each corner, set up my entry speed, then accelerated out, it would be in between the two examples. Sometimes I want to go blazingly fast. In those times I want to hit the corner as fast as the lean angle will let me. Sometimes I misjudge it and do hit the brakes in the beginning or middle of the corner to get rid of some speed so that I don't exceed the lean limit.

Sure if I was trying to teach somebody a text book safe riding course, I'd go much much slower, set the entrance speed before hand, and lightly excellerate out. No floorboards dragging at all.

It's not a one size fits all proposition. Nor is it a "racers do it this way" therefore it is the only right way type of thing. Different motivations for the ride will make it look different. And all can be done fairly safely depending on skill and experience.

The adage that you shouldn't use the front brake in a corner ever, would only be said so that a portion of the riding population, in a worst case scenario (wet leaves etc.) won't get into trouble. It is not a hard and fast rule that if broken means that you are likely to go down. If you flub the front brake so badly, chances are you will also flub the rear and high side when you let off.

Pay attention to traction, don't exceed it (which is hard to do, it takes a lot of effort to make happen) and you are fine using the front brake in a corner.

[jayc]

I like to say, I slow down with the rear brake and stop with the front. Of course, using both.

[moenko]

Dan, very good write-up and having the miles under the belt that you have, there's a lot of experience from which you can draw. I do agree that in the end, there are some basic rules when it comes to braking a motorcycle (physics apply to all of us), and the rest is rider's judgement and perhaps a bit of personal habit. Whatever is safe and effective, goes! Safe riding (and braking) to everyone!!

[dantama]

I like to say, I slow down with the rear brake and stop with the front. Of course, using both.


One caution with that jayc, there is a tendency in an emergency to do what you have done the most. When there isn't time to think, reflexes take over.

Because of this, I favor my front brake whether it is mild parking lot stops, red lights, corners, etc.

When a split second life or death situation comes up, and my mind defaults to habit, I want it to include a lot of front brake. So far that has been the case.

I'm a little too lazy with the rear brake; I think that it is poorly positioned compared to non-floorboard bikes. You really have to pick your foot up to use it, then you don't have as good of control modulating it. Even though I practice emergency stops fairly often (not often enough though) each time that I've had a true emergency, I mean a "you are about to die" car pull right out in front of you type stop, I've locked the rear.

When adrenaline hits, along with the poor placement of the rear brake control, it is so easy to lock the rear. But in each of those instances, I've gotten really good braking out of the front (resulting in an even easier locking of the rear).

It is probably best to develop the default/no thinking habit, out of the one that you really want to call on when there is no time to think.

[phenrichs]

When my wife is with me, my motivation is to make her feel safe and still have some pleasure for me. That is my mind set exactly.
Dan that is probably why
A: they are still riding with us
and
B: they are still married to us

If I rode the same way with my wife as I do alone she would kill and divorce me, and not in that particular order.

When I want to go blazingly fast I borrow my son's ZX-10R. It is scary fast.

[bosko]

When I want to go blazingly fast I borrow my son's ZX-10R. It is scary fast.

On a closed corse with all safety measures in place of course. ;)

[macmac]

Dan, very good write up, but I might like to add a detail here and there.

With pegs on bars it is possible to slip toes off the pegs and still have the heet of a boot anchored on the floor board, which allows very good pedal control. Most any ride can then toe' the brake pedal, with out lifting the the foot to mash the pedal down, which is hard to do with feeling.

On a bike with no pegs still the hell should be on the board..

This is not a car where pretty much we may tend to stomp the pedal.

I think taming the suspention down in a hard stop should happen, and the best way I know how, is to hit the rear brake lighty just a smidgen before the front brake is applied.

This will stretch the frame out as long as it can be, and reduce the dive.

I fully agree as the weight moves forward the rear needs to be lightened up, or the rear will lock and come around and bite us.