Hammers of Hades loose in the top end

[coffee_ brake]

Hi, I was referred here from another Vulcan rider.
I don't own a Vulcan bagger but I'm a fan of the marque, with 80k miles on my Concours and two KLRs in the family's stable.

A 2003 Nomad belongs to some friends and we were wondering what is this horrible noise. Anybody got a clue what has happened to this bike's top end?

https://soundcloud.com/madpb/top-end-nomad-sound

If the price got right, I might consider fixing it, although the most involved work I've done on a bike is a top end rebuild. I think I could handle this, though.
I think the poor thing is doomed to the parts bin, though.

[MAS Tequila]

Are you SURE there is enough oil in it?

If there IS oil then it sounds like one or possibly two collapsed HLAs.

I would put 3-4 ounces of Seafoam in the oil and let it run. I had one sound like this and after about 4-5 minutes the HLA pumped back up. If the noise lessens just change the oil and go.

If not, then the heads have to come off and the offending HLAs changed. There are two bronze filters in each head that need to be changed also. They WILL restrict the oil flow.

MT

[ringadingh]

I second what MT said, try some Seafoam first, other than that your looking to get into the motor.

[id-man]

Hi, I was referred here from another Vulcan rider.Me, me, me! Welcome coffee_brake. After hearing that horrible recording I hoped you'd come over here and let some of these guys hear it. The 2 who responded already are some of the exact people I hoped would lay ears on it.

I'm kinda surprised that anything so hideous sounding could possibly quiet down by merely pumping oil into the hydraulic lifters, but that's why I'm me and they're the superstars. If the 3 scenarios are *seafoam, *new lifters, or *scrap bin maybe you could do some creative dealing with the owner where the price could be based on how complex the fix turns out.

[duffy]

Dry lifters is sure what it sounds like.............

[coffee_ brake]

Dry lifters is sure what it sounds like.............

But we let it run for quite some time and it never quieted down. When I say loud, I mean LOUD. The phone recording the audio was never closer than 3 feet from the bike, and more like 5.

The oil level in the sight glass was full, and it didn't smell funny, or old, or fuel-y, or anything.

[MAS Tequila]

But we let it run for quite some time and it never quieted down. When I say loud, I mean LOUD. The phone recording the audio was never closer than 3 feet from the bike, and more like 5.

The oil level in the sight glass was full, and it didn't smell funny, or old, or fuel-y, or anything.

Try the Seafoam in the oil.

MT

[cnc]

Are you sure it is coming from the top end? Have you used a stethoscope or a 2 ft piece of garden hose to try and pinpoint the location?
What oil do you have in it? If it is fairly heavy oil, it may have a hard time getting into the lifter to pump it up, especially if lifter is stuck with gum or varnish.
You could try draining a qt of oil out and adding back a qt of lighter oil, say 5w20 along with the seafoam.
Just starting it up and running it for a few minutes probably won't be enough. Assuming it is a lifter, riding the bike for several miles so it is good and hot and gets a chance to rev usually works better.

[coffee_ brake]

I honestly don't think this is a lifter that needs to pump up. I've heard tappy hydraulic lifters before as they filled from a top end rebuild, and it was nothing so loud as this.

Not my bike, and not near me, so I'm not really in a position to go changing the oil and doing stuff that the potential seller should be doing. but it looked and smelled ok...

[cnc]

Totally collapsed lifters that won't pump up can be pretty noisy. Having said that listening the audio over the internet is vague at best. this is why I asked if the noise was pinpointed with a stethoscope. It reminds me more of a big end bearing gone bad on a motor that has solid bearings. I don't know what it would sound like on a motor with roller bearing big ends which I believe the nomad probably has.

You mention potential seller, is that your friend, are you considering buying the bike?
If so or some similar scenario, I would either pass on buying the bike, or pay a price that takes into the account a replacement motor is needed and hope that it doesn't.

[id-man]

You mention potential seller, is that your friend, are you considering buying the bike?
If so or some similar scenario, I would either pass on buying the bike, or pay a price that takes into the account a replacement motor is needed and hope that it doesn't.Yeah, someone stored it at his parent's farm (a couple hours away) and he's trying to determine if it's even worth making an offer on. Since there's slim to no chance of trouble shooting, I think your advice to treat this as a full motor replace is wisest. Assuming all other systems on the bike are sound, what is a fair purchase price to rebuild or replace a full motor and still be worthwhile? I suppose just as a "parts" bike it has a few hundred dollars value, but who wants to take the time to strip and sell parts individually....not me....not by choice.
ps, coffee_brake glad to see you got your log-in sorted out. I like this place.

[trosco]

CB, unless the 03 has a ton of resale able aftermarket items (Fairing, Trunk, Custom wheels, new chrome, etc...)needing a whole motor (and probably other stuff cause it takes some abuse to trash one of these motors) it is worth only a few $100 bucks.
IMHO!

[coffee_ brake]

Next time I'm near the bike, I doubt it will start because of the rotten fuel left in it.
And I DO part out bikes occassionally, but usually I buy sad neglect cases, clean /rebuild carbs and brakes and do what it needs to be reliable and streetworthy, and re-sell.

This bike is pretty well stock, not trunk. I think in parts it would be about $400. But if I could tell if it really was just lifters, I'd pay more and bring it back to the street.
This belongs to a friend of my elderly parents, and I wanted to help them troubleshoot the bike and get it gone off my parents' property. And of course since I have the wherewhithall to either part or fix the bike, I'm personally interested as well. Besides...it pains me to see a bike sit up and go bad, when it could run again.

I certainly appreciate the help and advice. The noise sounds like top end to me, much louder from tank level than from ground level.

And...uh, I'm my parents' daughter.... :tehe:

[duffy]

But we let it run for quite some time and it never quieted down. When I say loud, I mean LOUD. The phone recording the audio was never closer than 3 feet from the bike, and more like 5.

The oil level in the sight glass was full, and it didn't smell funny, or old, or fuel-y, or anything.

If the seals in the lifter are bad it will never "pump up" and what you have is a very large gap in the valve clearance. Thus the pounding sound...........it only takes one collapsed lifter to make a BUNCH of noise.

[coffee_ brake]

I like the sound of this...the dude whose bike it is may not want to come off the price he paid for the bike ($1000) but he'll have to keep it for that.
Maybe in time, and this time is soon, when it won't start at all because the fuel is bad, maybe then he'll take a loss on it.

[id-man]

And...uh, I'm my parents' daughter.... :tehe:Whoa, didn't see that coming. So how old are you cutie, come here often? You look familiar...what's your sign? No seriously, your knowledge of bikes and willingness to tear something apart and make it better is not common amongst the female pursuasion (or maybe I live a sheltered life). I admire that. I will try to refer to you as "her" or "she" in the future but I've got a feeling you'll always be "one of the guys around here". One final indulgence, is there a Mr. coffee_brake?
http://www.vulcanbagger.com/forums/images/icons/corkysm20.gif

[trosco]

CB, this is just one of those SWAG (sophisticated wild ass guess) statements. Rocker on valve stem makes a "tic" and it can be a "BIG" tic if lifter is totally collapsed but that noise is not a "tic" not even a huge tic. I'd say it is the sound of the valve hitting the top of the piston. That could be because of a broken valve spring but more likely it is due to a stretched cam chain jumping teeth. That would be "My Humble Opinion"

[cnc]

Ross is possibly right. A quick pull of the spark plug tubes looking for rubbing marks or checking to see if the chain adjusters are out of travel would be a clue that you need to go further and check the valve timing. In this scenario your looking at timing chain extenders and possibly a new valve and piston. Did the owner buy the bike with this noise? Has he had it long? Did he store it and this is the noise it made on start up? These are all other clues that might help you make guess on the seriousness of the problem.
If it were me and I had the time, I'd offer the owner $500 and take a chance on it.
If after getting into the motor you find it is really toast, you could easily make way more parting the bike out on eBay.

[coffee_ brake]

All I know is that this guy bought the bike knowing it made this noise.

I'm trying to envision what are spark plug tubes....
Yeah I think this guy's going to have to find another sucker to pass on this bike to, I'm not prepared to offer him anything near what he paid for it.

I married another soldier twelve years ago at my first duty station, we were learning how to ride motorcycles at the beginner's class when I decided he was pretty cute. We've been riding together ever since, even though I do tour cross-country alone. He couldn't gap a spark plug when I met him, but he is proficient at wrenching now. He's a full time welder so maintaining all the vehicles falls to me (along with the cooking and cleaning and taking care of the house).

[id-man]

Important question, do you have any single sisters with similar talents? :)

[cnc]

The cam chains run up the side of the cylinders one on each side. When you look at the spark plugs you will see that one on the rear right and left front cylinder is set in a tube and the tube accepts a 22mm ( if I remember right ) hexagon wrench. Unscrew that and look for rub marks on the tube. If there are rub marks from the chain(s) then the timing chains are loose or could have been loose in the past and then fixed, but I somehow doubt that kind of maintenance has been preformed by the previous owner.

[coffee_ brake]

OK thanks, I think I get it. I should be near the bike again around the Thanksgiving holiday, if there's time and nobody bothers me, I can take my time and give it a go.

[cnc]

OK thanks, I think I get it. I should be near the bike again around the Thanksgiving holiday, if there's time and nobody bothers me, I can take my time and give it a go.

Good luck and keep us posted about your progress.
Oh yeah, so as not to steer you wrong, I just measured the tube. It is a 26 mm hex. You will need to come up with a Allen key type tool as the hex is internal. I just made some thing up from bar stock. Maybe you can find a bolt that has a 26 mm head and weld a nut on the other end that you can put a wrench or socket on.

[cactusjack]

Important question, do you have any single sisters with similar talents? :)

Jeez...have you no shame, dude? :D

[ringadingh]

Those plug tubes are easy to remove, also its possible but not likely that the timing chain jumped a tooth on the cam sprocket, and the valves may be hitting. I'm not sure if the valves can hit the piston on a Nomad, but it would be something to check out.

[cnc]

Those plug tubes are easy to remove, also its possible but not likely that the timing chain jumped a tooth on the cam sprocket, and the valves may be hitting. I'm not sure if the valves can hit the piston on a Nomad, but it would be something to check out.

Steve that is the direction Ross is going with his thinking also, so I figure if there are serious wear marks on the tubes, then it would confirm that checking the valve timing would be a good next step.

I guess also the previous owner could have botched an extender job and unloaded the bike cheap.

[ringadingh]

If it turns out it is the timing that jumped a tooth, the heads will have to come off and the valves checked to see if they are bent. Hopefully there will be no piston damage.

[trosco]

CB (& Ring/Norm), I THINK (the underline means maybe) that the outside of the spark plug socket supplied in the tool kit for 1600 Nomads is the right size for pulling the plug tube. You should find it inside the left side cover which unlocks with the ignition key.

[cnc]

CB (& Ring/Norm), I THINK (the underline means maybe) that the outside of the spark plug socket supplied in the tool kit for 1600 Nomads is the right size for pulling the plug tube. You should find it inside the left side cover which unlocks with the ignition key.

Yeah, I thought that too Ross and double checked today, it's not. The outside will fit the front axle, 22mm. I knew there was a reason I made up something out of scrap, just couldn't remember why. Wonder what others use?

[coffee_ brake]

Jeez...have you no shame, dude? :D

Well heck I don't blame him! :D My fellow and I take good care of each other and we like to ride bikes together, it's a pretty sweet setup.

No tools under the cover, I remember that. So should I take some plug sockets with me next time I see the bike?

[cnc]

Well heck I don't blame him! :D My fellow and I take good care of each other and we like to ride bikes together, it's a pretty sweet setup.

No tools under the cover, I remember that. So should I take some plug sockets with me next time I see the bike?

That would be useful to bring a few tools. Read up on gadgets page there is a link here somewhere. It has a lot of useful info about inspecting/ doing timing chain extenders and other stuff that will get you more familiar with the nomad motor. There is a link to an on line shop manual near the top of this 1500/ 1600 section, but I am not sure that it works since we moved to a different host.

[xlock]

The tools are in a false bottom under the left side cover. It looks empty and there are often velcro straps making it look like something has been removed but the straps are for some CA smog equipment. Just look closer and you will see the bottom "floor" of the compartment actually comes loose and has the tools inside; there are "squeeze tabs" at the rear that release the compartment.

[coffee_ brake]

ok...thanks, I appreciate the heads-up on all this.

I just got a sweet steal on a 1979 Honda CX500 locally, and all it needed was a carb clean and the idle mixture screws replaced to get it back on the road in more or less streetworthy condition. I tagged it today. I wish this big cruiser was so simple.

[MAS Tequila]

Where are you located?

There may be someone close by who would be willing to take a look at it.

MT

[Silent Sam]

..Ole (not-so) Silent Sam Here...

Not being there..It's difficult to conclude the source of all that noise..BUT..is it possible that you recorded it on the "Injection-Side" of the engine with the fuel injection cover removed..and a "Cold Start" ?

After those little injector pumps warm up, they quiet down ..some.. !! ??

And along with the "normal clatter" of these BigKawks..they are pretty noisy with that cover off !

As for listening for engine noise/knocks etc.... Just take the handle of your household "plunger" (or a similar length of tube) and put one end in your ear..and the other end on any part of the engine where you want to -hear wutz goin on in there- (Dont get the listening device into any moving parts)

As for id-man's questions...and "Havin No Shame"...I'm about ready to adopt that boy...my question is..does coffee brake have a mom who might be interested in ..gettin involved ?

[id-man]

ROFLMAO! :lmao:

(rolling on the floor laughing my keester off)

[coffee_ brake]

I should have put that info in the profile, the bike is within 30 miles of Charleston, SC.

Sam all the covers were on except the left air cleaner cover, and the recording was on the right side, about 5 feet away. I think if I can get these plug tubes, I might find some undue wear on them. My hopes aren't too high about having the time to mess with it, though. Southern women are pretty darned busy with the food on Thanksgiving day.

And sorry, Mom and Dad just celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary this summer, ain't neither one of them gonna jump the fence this late in the game! :yep: For their anniversary, they took the bike up to the mountains and I was their tour guide all over the Smokies! They rode till I got tired!

[Snake Ranch]

I don't know how these engines are made but on a lot of the engines I have worked on they have "free floating wrist pins". The connecting rod can have a bronze bushing pressed in the wrist pin end. I have seen these bushings come out. The resulting clearance will make a lot of noise. Just a thought.:???:

[Silent Sam]

..Owww Shucks..Well coffee brake, Congratulations to your folks

..Ole #4, and my inlaws (after 30 yrs)..are trying to kill me at this point...(they figured out I'm worth a few -"very few"..$$$). But I'm a Hard-Head, and refuse to die....

And I'm keepin an eye out for "Ole #5"

Good luck on finding the fix for the clatter in that engine...

......See Ya , Out There, Some Where, In The Wind... "shamefully, shameless sam"