EPA letter

[cactusjack]

Folks,

I don't know how many of you are aware of a pending action by the EPA to require a minimum 4 gallon fuel purchase which would apply to all motor vehicles, including motorcycles, trikes and ATVs from blender pumps dispensing both E15 and E10 fuels.

You can read about it here and send a letter to the EPA, if you are against this proposed action.

http://capwiz.com/amacycle/issues/alert/?alertid=61899816&queueid=[capwiz:queue_id]

[glwilson]

Folks,

I don't know how many of you are aware of a pending action by the EPA to require a minimum 4 gallon fuel purchase which would apply to all motor vehicles, including motorcycles, trikes and ATVs from blender pumps dispensing both E15 and E10 fuels.

You can read about it here and send a letter to the EPA, if you are against this proposed action.

http://capwiz.com/amacycle/issues/alert/?alertid=61899816&queueid=[capwiz:queue_id]

I have to admit I am confused about this. What the heck is a blender pump? I don't think I have seen one; or if I have I didn't know it.

Are all pumps "blender pumps" when they have two, three or four choices of fuel? I suspect they are and didn't know this. I just thought there was a tank for each octane of fuel. If so... just call me a dumb-ass...

Regarding the law... this is a prime example of our politicians' incompetence continuing to invade our lives.

[MarkG]

The only good news for us in Arizona is it will not be happening for quite a while until they get things straightened out. The Department of Weights and Measures wants considerably more information and details before any decisions will be made.

[cnc]

I think the blender pump term brings up a little confusion. There still is a separate tank for each grade of fuel, but many of todays pumps have only one hose and by pushing the grade button of your choice you cause the pump to pump from that particular tank.
I'm sure not a fan of any ethanol in gas, especially for use in a 2 cycle engine, but I can't help thinking the residue left from the pump / switching device to the nozzle can not be that much fuel maybe a liter or so at the most. If this is true and you are already running on 10% ethanol and you buy say 10 liters of gas ( a little over 2 Gal) 9 @ 10% and 1 left in the hose from the previous guy @ 15 %, you have in effect bought 10 liters of 10.5% ethanol gas.
I can not see that 1/2 % being the difference between not damaging your engine and damaging it.

[Sin City Stan]

I have to admit I am confused about this. What the heck is a blender pump? I don't think I have seen one; or if I have I didn't know it.

Are all pumps "blender pumps" when they have two, three or four choices of fuel? I suspect they are and didn't know this. I just thought there was a tank for each octane of fuel. If so... just call me a dumb-ass...

Regarding the law... this is a prime example of our politicians' incompetence continuing to invade our lives.

Greg, a blender pump has on nozzle that all grades of gasoline are delivered through. As opposed to a pump with three nozzles. The concern is the amount of fuel left in the hose between purchases. It's not much to worry about unless you are buying a small amount of fuel. I.e. for a motorcycle.

What it comes down to is that they don't have a clue and more importantly don't really care as long as the they can push more corn fuel. The new substitute for the land bank. :ohno:

[glwilson]

Well then in that case, they need to make the gas stations buy pumps that do not blend the fuel... problem solved!:cheers:

[waterman]

Ok, who ever wrote that was an idiot. A blender pump (single hose or multi-hose) is not just dispensing e10 or 15. A blender pump allows an individual to mix their own Exx anywhere from E10 to E85. What the concern is if the last pumper was using E85 and you just got 2 gallons. You then have an E47 mixture.

http://www.bioenergywiki.net/Blender_pump

[schoeney]

Let's see. The EPA is a government agency. No wonder it is not a good idea.

Maybe I should invest in 5 gallon gas cans so all those people with those 2 gallon gas cans for their lawnmower can fund my retirement?

[Top Cat]

With all due respect Joel your definition may be the correct one but when the governing bodies say blender pump I think they are talking about the definition Stan gave.

[Monkeyman]

Almost all gas stations use blender pumps as most gas stations only have 2 tanks for unleaded gasoline (one for the lowest octane and another for the highest). If you want the lowest or highest octane gas, it comes straight from that tank. If you opt for a mid grade, the pump mixes it. E fuels have separate tanks from non-E fuels but it's still the same concept. E10 in one tank and E85 in another. The pumps blend those if you choose something in between one of the extremes.

It's unlikely you'd get enough high ethanol gas in your tank to matter unless you got a gallon at a time and the previous person got E85. Most people don't buy E85 and most riders don't buy gas until they tank is pretty low. They make recycler pumps, too. Basically, these don't leave much gas in the line at all. (I'm not sure how they work or if I have the correct term for them. I used to manage a gas station and still have a couple buddies who do so I get my info from them.)

Personally, I think there should be a separate hose for each grade of E and non-E so there's no question about what you're getting but the cost would be high and the gas companies would pass that along to the consumer. What's $4/gal now would be $8/gal.

[Cajunrider]

There are 3 separate tanks here for all vendors that sell 87, 89, 91/93 octane fuel. If there are only two grades there are only two pumps, not very common. I guess we just haven't figured out what blender pumps are yet. Our average price for regular 87 octane is about $3.62.

[Sin City Stan]

. Most people don't buy E85 and most riders don't buy gas until they tank is pretty low.

I can think of quite a few times I bought only a gallon of gas when blindly roaming around in Utah, Arizona, Colorado and Nevada. You never know when you will see another gas station and even if you do it may not be open. Unless I preplanned the trip I top off often. :yep:

[waterman]

Almost all gas stations use blender pumps as most gas stations only have 2 tanks for unleaded gasoline (one for the lowest octane and another for the highest). If you want the lowest or highest octane gas, it comes straight from that tank. If you opt for a mid grade, the pump mixes it. E fuels have separate tanks from non-E fuels but it's still the same concept. E10 in one tank and E85 in another. The pumps blend those if you choose something in between one of the extremes.

It's unlikely you'd get enough high ethanol gas in your tank to matter unless you got a gallon at a time and the previous person got E85. Most people don't buy E85 and most riders don't buy gas until they tank is pretty low. They make recycler pumps, too. Basically, these don't leave much gas in the line at all. (I'm not sure how they work or if I have the correct term for them. I used to manage a gas station and still have a couple buddies who do so I get my info from them.)

Personally, I think there should be a separate hose for each grade of E and non-E so there's no question about what you're getting but the cost would be high and the gas companies would pass that along to the consumer. What's $4/gal now would be $8/gal.


Incorrect monkey, Gas stations have as many tanks as they do different gas octanes. They are premixed at the refinery or pump depot. The concept of blender stations is mixing different ethanol levels in your fuel mixture. Not the octane level that is currently being sold. In areas, people want more flexability than what is currently out there for ethanol. They may want greater than E10 but not the full E85.

Many gas stations have only one nozzle but the pump is really selecting which tank to pull from of the 3 choices. Not blending them as you pump.

[Top Cat]

Many gas stations have only one nozzle but the pump is really selecting which tank to pull from of the 3 choices. Not blending them as you pump.

So if the guy before me pumps E-85 there will be residual E-85 in the line when I pump my Ethanol free gas.
Isn't that what this thread was originally explaining?
Blender pump or not, if the pump has only one hose then we get a little of whatever the guy before us got.

[cnc]

So if the guy before me pumps E-85 there will be residual E-85 in the line when I pump my Ethanol free gas.
Isn't that what this thread was originally explaining?
Blender pump or not, if the pump has only one hose then we get a little of whatever the guy before us got.

And that is the issue in my mind Tim. Is the residue left in the line enough to harm your motor, I don't think so.

I remember when pumps had a shut off lever at the pump and the nozzle. A smart consumer shut off that lever and then squeezed the nozzle again while lifting the hose a bit to drain out that last extra bit you had already paid for. If you didn't you had no idea if the previous guy had done that and you got short changed.

[waterman]

So if the guy before me pumps E-85 there will be residual E-85 in the line when I pump my Ethanol free gas.
Isn't that what this thread was originally explaining?
Blender pump or not, if the pump has only one hose then we get a little of whatever the guy before us got.

I haven't seen or heard of a pump on a current station that has a single hose for anything that includes E85. They have set those up seperately because of the potential issues.

They are currently working on putting blender pumps out for E10 to E85 mixes that are inbetween that people will want. Newer or revamped stations may go this way. From what I have seen and discussed on this issue is that the blender pumps right now are strictly for different blends of ethanol. Not the basic 2 to 3 octane levels that are currently available.

[Top Cat]

We have one station in the town I live in that has ethanol free gas.
It pumps the ethanol free from the same hose as it pumps E-10.
The E-free is $4.56 a gallon. I'm thinking it is not worth the price.

[Rotorboy]

Just a quick note on how much the hose can hold. Depending on pump set up and hose length, a single hose pump can dispense almost 3/4 gallon of what ever the previous person pumped before getting to what you have selected.

[Cajunrider]

We have one station in the town I live in that has ethanol free gas.
It pumps the ethanol free from the same hose as it pumps E-10.
The E-free is $4.56 a gallon. I'm thinking it is not worth the price.

How much/gallon is the E-10? I use ethanol free gas as much as possible especially in the bike and lawn equipment. It is $3.65/gal comared to $3.52/gal for E-10. Worth the difference in price here IMO.

[Top Cat]

Mitch,
The E-10 is 4.09 for 87 oct,
4.19 for 89 oct
4.34 for 91 oct
But the reason I say it is not worth it for E-free is it is pumped from the same hose so who knows how much E-free you are actually getting?

[Loafer]

Most of the gas pumps here have the hose hanging from above the pump.
The hose hangs down past the handle hang up. I would guess a pint of gas
could be in the bend. Is there another bend in the pumping equipment we don't see that would have more fluid hung up?

[chucks1911]

Actual cost per gallon is kinda hard to figure out when you consider the government subsudies.

[ponch]

Ok, who ever wrote that was an idiot. A blender pump (single hose or multi-hose) is not just dispensing e10 or 15. A blender pump allows an individual to mix their own Exx anywhere from E10 to E85. What the concern is if the last pumper was using E85 and you just got 2 gallons. You then have an E47 mixture.

http://www.bioenergywiki.net/Blender_pump

I prefer E0

[ponch]

Greg, a blender pump has on nozzle that all grades of gasoline are delivered through. As opposed to a pump with three nozzles. The concern is the amount of fuel left in the hose between purchases. It's not much to worry about unless you are buying a small amount of fuel. I.e. for a motorcycle.

What it comes down to is that they don't have a clue and more importantly don't really care as long as the they can push more corn fuel. The new substitute for the land bank. :ohno:

In Iowa you might as well confess you are an active child molester to a group of BACA members than say you are against ethanol/gasohol.

[ponch]

Incorrect monkey, Gas stations have as many tanks as they do different gas octanes. They are premixed at the refinery or pump depot. The concept of blender stations is mixing different ethanol levels in your fuel mixture. Not the octane level that is currently being sold. In areas, people want more flexability than what is currently out there for ethanol. They may want greater than E10 but not the full E85.

Many gas stations have only one nozzle but the pump is really selecting which tank to pull from of the 3 choices. Not blending them as you pump.

I guess you never saw the old Sunoco pumps. you could chose from 86 to 94 octane. I doubt they had 5 or 6 tanks. Just saying.

[ponch]

Actual cost per gallon is kinda hard to figure out when you consider the government subsudies.

In Iowa they subsidize E10 (89) to the extent that it is cheaper than 87, usually 5-10 cents a gallon cheaper.

[Sin City Stan]

In Iowa you might as well confess you are an active child molester to a group of BACA members than say you are against ethanol/gasohol.

Same thing in Illinois. The facts, like real cost of ethanol (plow, plant, cultivate, pick, dry and ship all take oil to accomplish. Now add the cost of processing in an ethanol plant.) are ignored in this discussion.

[Rotorboy]

Most of the gas pumps here have the hose hanging from above the pump.
The hose hangs down past the handle hang up. I would guess a pint of gas
could be in the bend. Is there another bend in the pumping equipment we don't see that would have more fluid hung up?

It shuts off at the handle, so the entire hose is full. Not just the bend.

[glwilson]

For what it is worth... I called the owner of the Mobil station-chain that is everywhere around here (talk about a monopoly on Mobil stations).

He told me we don't have "blender-pumps" in our area yet (North Central Illinois)... but that it appears they are coming eventually if the government gets their way...

He said blender pumps are something he wouldn't mind having, but to switch at this point would cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars for all of his stations.

Again... for what it is worth...

[Top Cat]

Incorrect monkey, Gas stations have as many tanks as they do different gas octanes. They are premixed at the refinery or pump depot. The concept of blender stations is mixing different ethanol levels in your fuel mixture. Not the octane level that is currently being sold. In areas, people want more flexability than what is currently out there for ethanol. They may want greater than E10 but not the full E85.

Many gas stations have only one nozzle but the pump is really selecting which tank to pull from of the 3 choices. Not blending them as you pump.

I guess you never saw the old Sunoco pumps. you could chose from 86 to 94 octane. I doubt they had 5 or 6 tanks. Just saying.

I used to work in a Sunoco station after my real job back in '64.
We sure didn't have 6 tanks under ground.

[glwilson]

For what it is worth...

Blender pump location map. While this appears to have been established in 2008, ethanol.org still refers you this this map as the current one for locations, so apparently they are updating.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=114795702092705781866.0004506e7cf3ae206a7c0

A brochure, where on page 3 it shows a blender pump and how various blends are made from two tanks.

http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/Blending_Better_Solutions_ACE_Spring_2008.pdf

From what I can tell... blender pumps are not located in many areas; and that the "push" for stations to start using them is still in its infancy. It may be a while before some see these -- most likely those states furthest from where corn is grown.

In glancing at some information on ethanol.org... it doesn't appear we can make enough ethanol to supply the entire country with it. At least not for a long while.