Ethanol in gas

[Top Cat]

It is my understanding that Ethanol is worse on a bike with a carberator.
I have a Drifter that has a carberator. Do you think I need to use an additive to counteract the Ethanol? If so, what would you reccomend? I know there are a lot of snowmobiles with carberators blowing up motors here lately.

[Cajunrider]

TC, I don't think the 10% ethanol will "blow up" an engine. It will reduce efficiency and clog your fuel filter with crud it dissolves in the fuel system. I filled my Nomad yesterday with ethanol free Conoco 87 octane gasoline to see just what difference it will make. It looks like I did go a little further than normal on the first bar. I didn't notice much difference in the performance or idle though. I'll run a couple of tanks through it just to satisfy my curiosity. I paid 26 cents/gallon more for this pure gasoline. It had better deliver.

[AlabamaNomadRider]

Some older engines have had a problem with the ethanol disolving gaskets and things like that. New engines should be able to handle it. I hardly ever purchase gas with ethanol. It is getting harder to find just pure gas. Especially after the government is giving ethanol producers a bunch of our money to continue producing it.

[tbmmbt]

The EPA has just changed their minds and now they say it will be ok to put up to a 15% ethanol mix in gas. Wonder if that will change anything for the worse?

[ringadingh]

Ethanol gas won't blow up a motor itself but its hard on some of the rubber components in fuel tanks, carbs etc. especially on older small engines. When these parts dissentigrate they will cause your motor to stop or not run right.
Just last night I seen a commercial on TV advertising a new product from Stabil just for this reason. Its a fuel additive that supposedly stops the harmful effects of ethanol fuel.

[AlabamaNomadRider]

Thanks for the tip Steve, I will have to be on the lookout for it. Stabil is a good product hopefully the new product will be as good.

I,too, read about the increase to 15% ethanol. This reminds me if years ago the Feds mandated all vehicles run on unleaded fuel. The only unleaded our there at the time was 87 octane. Cars and trucks knocked, pinged, etc, and just plain wouldn't run right on it, because the engines weren't tuned for it. It took years before vehicles would finally run problem free on 87. My point is that these pencil pushers mandate this stuff without a clue as to it's effects. We are left to deal with the fallout.

[Top Cat]

As a side note they say it is OK to run 15% in your cars and trucks but it should not be run in motorcycles,lawn mowers snow blowers and small engines.
What a crock of sh*t. This country is getting real messed up.

[ndbigfish]

Tim this may be what is happening: A major problem is Phase Separation created when water gets into the fuel causing the water/ethanol mixture to sink to the bottom of the tank where the fuel pick-up is. Engines cannot run on an alcohol/water blend and will seize. Two cycle engines particularly have this problem since the proper lubricant will not be present in the gasoline. While a properly formulated additive may prevent the separation by removing excess water, it will not cure the problem once it exists. The best defense is to keep the tank as full as possible. Moisture condenses in the empty space in the tank, so reducing the amount of air in the tank reduces the amount of water that can enter. (source article at Sta-bil website)

I have tried the (blue) Sta-bil for ethanol fuel; it is expensive. I just use MMO in my motors on every fill-up. Worked good in my carb bikes I've had too.

I have a friend that just recently found out about the joys of ethanol fuel; always buying it from the same giant retainer. He just spent $300 to have the injectors cleaned, fuel filter replaced and the throttle body cleaned on his truck. All this on a three year truck with 16K miles on it. Oh he also got a new battery...my bad; surely a better deal now. He could have bought a lot of fuel treatment for $300.

Stabil link: http://www.goldeagle.com/products/product3CC6.aspx
More reading:
http://www.goldeagle.com/engine_care/411onethanol.aspx

[Top Cat]

Tim this may be what is happening: A major problem is Phase Separation created when water gets into the fuel causing the water/ethanol mixture to sink to the bottom of the tank where the fuel pick-up is. Engines cannot run on an alcohol/water blend and will seize. Two cycle engines particularly have this problem since the proper lubricant will not be present in the gasoline. While a properly formulated additive may prevent the separation by removing excess water, it will not cure the problem once it exists. The best defense is to keep the tank as full as possible. Moisture condenses in the empty space in the tank, so reducing the amount of air in the tank reduces the amount of water that can enter. (source article at Sta-bil website)

I have tried the (blue) Sta-bil for ethanol fuel; it is expensive. I just use MMO in my motors on every fill-up. Worked good in my carb bikes I've had too.

I have a friend that just recently found out about the joys of ethanol fuel; always buying it from the same giant retainer. He just spent $300 to have the injectors cleaned, fuel filter replaced and the throttle body cleaned on his truck. All this on a three year truck with 16K miles on it. Oh he also got a new battery...my bad; surely a better deal now. He could have bought a lot of fuel treatment for $300.

Stabil link: http://www.goldeagle.com/products/product3CC6.aspx
More reading:
http://www.goldeagle.com/engine_care/411onethanol.aspx

nobigfish, my brother in law is big time into snowmobiling. Last week he saw and heard about lots of engines seize. I'm talkin' sleds broke down side the trail.
This is why I'm lookin' for info. I don't want my Drifter which has a carberator to seize.
My brother in law uses Klotz octane booster in his machines.

[ringadingh]

I seen the Stabil Ethanol commercial while watching Barrett Jackson on Speed Channel. I;ll try to pay closer attention to it next time I see it.

[timebandit]

I run ethanol in all of my machines.

I keep the tanks always filled to the max when not using. Just got this habit of filling up when finished using so next time I want to use the machine it is ready to go.

The only time I do not use ethanol is when I can't get it at the fill up station I'm at or when I plan on not using the machine for a prolong period of time, re: more then a month/winter storage, then I fill up with premium.

I've been doing this for as long as I can remember that ethanol was available.

I use to race with Alcohol powered big block engines, now that is murder http://s2.images.proboards.com/shocked.gif http://s2.images.proboards.com/shocked.gif on rubber parts!

[nomadtom69]

The treatment is called Marine Stai-built I talked to guy at the Panama City Beach Bike week they recommend the marine type and 104 octane for the older bikes and just the stai built in newer ones when the ethanol is in the gas

[ponch]

I've never heard of 4 stroke engines seizing from have water in the gas. I do know that ethanol is corrosive and will screw up a fuel system not designed for it. It is harder on carbureted engines as it can or will screw up the float over time. If you have a bike with a carb, use non-ethanol fuel if you can. I made the mistake of getting the ethanol in my 800 Classic. I ended up leaving it at a friends house and when I drained the carb, water ho. Never again.

Even with the beemer, they manual says it will run on it, but they strongly suggest top tier straight fuel. It's almost impossible to find it in Iowa, land of ethanol.


Tim this may be what is happening: A major problem is Phase Separation created when water gets into the fuel causing the water/ethanol mixture to sink to the bottom of the tank where the fuel pick-up is. Engines cannot run on an alcohol/water blend and will seize. Two cycle engines particularly have this problem since the proper lubricant will not be present in the gasoline. While a properly formulated additive may prevent the separation by removing excess water, it will not cure the problem once it exists. The best defense is to keep the tank as full as possible. Moisture condenses in the empty space in the tank, so reducing the amount of air in the tank reduces the amount of water that can enter. (source article at Sta-bil website)

I have tried the (blue) Sta-bil for ethanol fuel; it is expensive. I just use MMO in my motors on every fill-up. Worked good in my carb bikes I've had too.

I have a friend that just recently found out about the joys of ethanol fuel; always buying it from the same giant retainer. He just spent $300 to have the injectors cleaned, fuel filter replaced and the throttle body cleaned on his truck. All this on a three year truck with 16K miles on it. Oh he also got a new battery...my bad; surely a better deal now. He could have bought a lot of fuel treatment for $300.

Stabil link: http://www.goldeagle.com/products/product3CC6.aspx
More reading:
http://www.goldeagle.com/engine_care/411onethanol.aspx

[cnc]

TC, Due to the nature of a 2 cycle snowmobile engine ethanol can be harder on them. the main reason is oil is injected directly into the crank case and must circulate through the engine with the gas to lubricate it. Ethanol is known to strips away the oils ability to bond it's self to metal engine parts. Ethanol has been said to break down faster than non ethanol gas, as short as 30 days, leaving behind varnish that gums up jets in the carbs. This can be deadly in a two cycle and a sure way to burn a hole in a piston from running lean, but to be fair it can just as easily happen with non ethanol gas and poor storage/ maintenance habits. Ethanol is also said to attract moisture which if it freezes in the carbs can cause the same damaging lean conditions.
Up here we still have a choice and can get non ethanol gas everywhere, and I believe there must be a sticker on the pump if it contains ethanol. I will not put that stuff in any of my snowmobiles if I can help it. I would expect that late model bikes, carbed or fuel injected use O rings and seals made to withstand ethanol, which was not the case in the past. You still have to be concerned about fuel break down and gumming up, so if it was me, I would use sea foam every once and a while during the season and seek out Non ethanol fuel to fill up both bikes just before storage and use stabil.

[ringadingh]

It seems odd that something that seems to do more harm than good to a lot of motors is being is being supported by the government. Perhaps its a ploy to get rid of a lot of small engines, and use it as a reason to become more eco friendly.
It wouldn't be so bad if you had a choice at each gas station, but in my area we don't.

[nomadtom69]

Govt. pushing e85 soon the older cars and bikes will not run on the junk and everyone has to buy new ones made to run on the junk its called a economic boost

[ringadingh]

There is always an alterier motive to benefit the big guys.

[ponch]

The market isn't driving this, special interests are. Whenever an idea needs the power of the government to see the light of day when it cannot stand on its own, you can be pretty sure it's a bad idea.

[glwilson]

The market isn't driving this, special interests are. Whenever an idea needs the power of the government to see the light of day when it cannot stand on its own, you can be pretty sure it's a bad idea.

Precisely... ;)

I believe "cnc" also nailed it on the head with regards to ethanol effect on engines. Most areas where there are a lot of small sport engine activities, you'll see an option of fuel without ethanol for that very reason.

I ride snowmobiles, and last year we used a friend of mine's Arctic Cats. They both had 675 miles on them and both, on the same day, had the main-bearings disintegrate -- literally. Just simply blew-up. We didn't get to ride that day; but at least were able to have the bearings replaced and ride again that trip.

The problem with the bearings was that they were Chinese bearings, and the mechanic said he is seeing more and more problems with them -- enough that he keeps a good supply of them in stock. He buys American-made bearings to replace the Chinese bearings.

Just thought I would mention it.

[ringadingh]

I guess evn the manufacturers are trying to cut corners by using Chinese parts, It must cost them a lot in warranty claims repairing all those problems. I worked at a Arctic Cat dealer as a tech for many years and they always used Koyo or NTN bearings, I don't remember any failure rates with those brands back then.

[cnc]

In 1973 myself and 2 friends bought El-tigres to race. It was the first year they were available and were really just ext's built in enough numbers to justify stock. We tore the crap out of those cats for 2 seasons and never had any engine bearing related problems. The engines were built by Kawasaki back then. Fast forward to today, a couple of friends still run Arctic Cats on the trails, while I have switched brands. Both those cats have Suzuki built engines and both have had problems. Is it the fuel, is it cheap parts, or poor maintenance, hard to say, but I just do not think much of Arctic Cat these days.

[glwilson]

I am not an expert on any thing mechanical, and most certainly not brand-specific problems... like Arctic Cat; but it seems most all sleds these days have a variety of part-resources. Evidently some are simply not as good as others.

Regarding warranty work... my friend's bearing problem was not under warranty as far as I know. He paid to get them both fixed and it was a fairly expensive bill to pay.

I don't pay for the cost of the sleds; but rather pay for the truck's gas to get there, the entire hotel cost, and a good share of the food we eat. All in all, that is about what it would cost me to rent a sled for multiple days -- so that is how we do the trip expenses.

We are headed to Copper Harbor, MI in the U.P. of Michigan this Thursday for a 5-day snowmobiling trip. I have made contact with a dealer up there to rent sleds just in case we have any problem with his again. I just can't seem to gather enough trust in them to hold-up. We'll see.

[cnc]

GLwilson, Yes it's pretty expensive to open up an engine these days. As a little bit of added protection your friend might try using synthetic 2 cycle oil. I have heard that ethanol does not interfere with it's lubricating properties as much. another option is to increase the output of the oil pump slightly. Enjoy your snowmobile trip, I am headed out tomorrow with a few of the guys. We gotta do something till the bikes come out in the spring. http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

So we should keep our tanks full? Bikes, lawnmowers, edgers, leaf blowers, etc ?

[skeeter]

Just use Amsoil...... ;) http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

[ringadingh]

Greg, have fun snowmobiling. Ive been up were you are going, Its good snowmobile terrain. We use to race in Alpena Mi. in the early 80's. There was quite an enthusiastic crowd there.

[glwilson]

Thanks guys. I plan on having a great time. The snow should be good up there from what I have been reading. They generally have about two-feet of snow on the ground. The trails have about a 20 to 30 compacted base on them -- which is perfect. http://s2.images.proboards.com/cool.gif

Generally snow isn't a problem there since they get around 330 inches of snow-fall per season -- although last year was miserable up there; but still better than northern Wisconsin which basically didn't have much of a season at all.

[cbutteris]

Didn't notice that anyone brought up the question of mileage using the ethanol blends. I've suspected lower mileage but it's hard to verify. A quick google question came back with reports that alcohol definitely returns fewer mpg's.

I try to avoid the ethanol blends when possible (preference is BP or Shell).

[nomadtom69]

all the BP and Shell around here have 10% the only pure gas we have in this area is Sunnoco I think the small independent dealers that have pure gas buy from that same distributor

[Top Cat]

Sunoco gas here is 10% ethanol :(

[nomadtom69]

maybe be the different distributor's

[cbutteris]

Wow- sounds like options might be disappearing fast! We drove out to Colorado (via NE) in December and almost every station was $3.09 for ethanol blend and usually A LOT more for the 87 regular.
And yes, our Chevy got crappy mileage on that trip!

[ponch]

Didn't notice that anyone brought up the question of mileage using the ethanol blends. I've suspected lower mileage but it's hard to verify. A quick google question came back with reports that alcohol definitely returns fewer mpg's.

I try to avoid the ethanol blends when possible (preference is BP or Shell).

Ethanol definitely gives worse mileage. Last year at PDC, I was getting 40-43 on non-ethanol fuel, same when I went to Custer. In Iowa, 35-37.

Another thing is top tier fuel. The folks from Germany made a big deal of this when I got the bike. http://www.toptiergas.com/ . Ethanol is discouraged as well.

[cbutteris]

Good link, Ponch.

I saved it off to my favorites for future reference. -CB

[flavor]

Caught up on some reading today. Read yesterday and todays local paper. Article in yesterday's paper that 15% ethanol was approved. On hold though..........

Didn't catch all of previous postings about this so I don't know everything commented on. But what they did say in the article is that ethanol screws up catalytic converters, especially in older vehicles. They also said the small engine repar guys were talking about how ethanol ruins engines on lawnmowers chainsaws etc. I imagine it's not good for motorcycles as well (especially of the older variety).

Additional comments were it's going to drive the price of grain up and people are going to have to search for specific gas stations as well.

I'm just sayin......

[Top Cat]

The news paper article I read said if the station is going to sell 15% they have to have a pump for 10% and a different pump for 15%.
Just what I read........

[nomadtom69]

You really think they are going to install a new tank just for the 15% gas

[Top Cat]

That's the way I read it. The article said a lot of stations will not sell 15% because of the expense and space problem of adding a seperate pump.

[cbutteris]

I'm not real familiar how this distribution works. Are the regional distributors getting the incentives ($$) to push blended fuels?

And from what you guys are saying it will only be the new stations going in that will install tanks and pumps for E85. Is that about right?

[nomadtom69]

either that or the older stations will have to either drop a grade of fuel aka 93 oct or put in a extra tank for the 15%

[glwilson]

Ethanol gas is always less expensive because the government subsidizes it to be so.

Otherwise ethanol would be much more expensive.

As a footnote; ethanol as an alternative fuel source is not "fuel-efficient". In other words, most research will show you that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than ethanol produces -- thus the subsidies.

Ponch is right about ethanol's mileage... it is not near as good as regular gasoline -- again thus the subsidies.

[dogdoc]

TC My brand new 6 mo old Honda mower wouldnt idle right so I took it in I thought under warranty. he had to replace whole carb to fiz it. he said it was the ethanol eating them up like it does on all small engines. It was NOT covered under warranty. he said none of the major nbrands cover fuel related issues like this. he said to USE a additive to reduce/elimnate the ethanol and stablize the gas. One brand Star-tron another is the new improved Stabil. And he said the gov't has approved the 15% which should kick in soon. http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

[ndbigfish]

Blue Marine Sta-bil (8 oz) $9.99 @ WM. Ouch!

[Top Cat]

TC My brand new 6 mo old Honda mower wouldnt idle right so I took it in I thought under warranty. he had to replace whole carb to fiz it. he said it was the ethanol eating them up like it does on all small engines. It was NOT covered under warranty. he said none of the major nbrands cover fuel related issues like this. he said to USE a additive to reduce/elimnate the ethanol and stablize the gas. One brand Star-tron another is the new improved Stabil. And he said the gov't has approved the 15% which should kick in soon. http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif
Another example of the Government ramming sh*t down our throat. http://s2.images.proboards.com/angry.gif:(" title=">:(" border="0"/>
My brother in law uses Star tron in his snow mobile and the crap gas we get now still gummed up his idle jet. Had to take apart and clean. If the crap gas gums up the other jets it causes a lean condition that grenades the piston, from what I understand.
My Drifter is carbed so I will check into the improved Stabil. Doc,Is the new improved Stabil for everyday use or just storing the bike?

[ndbigfish]

Marine Sta-bil can be used for storage and everyday use. It is a product for boats, thus the title. 8 oz of Marine Sta-bil is $9.99, while 8 oz of MMO is 81¢. Seems like the Star Tron was more expensive still.

[Top Cat]

What does MMO do for ethanol gas.

[nomadtom69]

If I remember right it just takes 1/2 ounce of the Marine Stabil for normal use for 5 gal 1 ounce if you store with it. I have a old BMW k100rt I have to use it and 104 octane boost

[Top Cat]

If I remember right it just takes 1/2 ounce of the Marine Stabil for normal use for 5 gal 1 ounce if you store with it. I have a old BMW k100rt I have to use it and 104 octane boost

You can't just use high test gas and the marine stabil ?

[nomadtom69]

It runs better with the 104 but it will run on 93 octane but still have to use the blue stabil and try to run real gas as much as possible have one or two stations around that had it last summer hope the still have it this year I hope to have the BMW sold before summer but who knows with the economy like it is.

[nomadtom69]

If you are around some of the bigger bike rallys there is usually a booth giving out rebates on the sta-bil and 104 you can buy a large sta-bil and get $10 rebate same with the 104 I try to do this in the spring and the large bottle usually last me the summer

[ndbigfish]

My thought is if ethanol varnishes and is corrosive.

Then............

something that lubricates - - - - Fights corrosion and friction
something that cleans - - - - - Reduces varnish, gum and carbon
something that stabilizes - - - - Reduces degradation of fuel

I have tried the "blue" products but I have been using MMO in everything with a motor for over 11 years with no problems or issues. My bikes and autos get it at every fill-up. MMO used to have a statement about helping with water; but it appears that has disappeared in the advertising. I had it in my carbed bike that was not started for over (2) years during some health issues when I couldn't ride. No problems there. MMO is more economical too. I'm not saying what to use or not use; just that MMO has worked well for me.


The following is "borrowed" from the Turtle Wax website.

Marvel Mystery Oil® lubricates the entire fuel system-fuel pumps, fuel injectors or carburetors and the top portion of the cylinders. These are areas, that by design, motor oil does not reach. Using Marvel Mystery Oil in your fuel extends the life of these vital components by providing them with lubrication that fuel alone does not provide.

• Marvel reduces and prevents varnish and gum build-up, two key contributors to robbing engine performance. When you shut off your engine, a miniscule drop of fuel is left at the tip of the fuel injectors or carburetor jets. This miniscule drop off of fuel then solidifies into a varnish type residue. Over time, the accumulated varnish blocks the openings of the injectors or jets, contributing to lower performance and fuel economy and shorter life of these components.

• Spark plug life is also extended by using Marvel in your fuel. It creates a cleaner burning cylinder environment that reduces carbon build-up on spark plugs resulting in better firing plugs that increase performance and durability.

• In addition, Marvel Mystery Oil® improves fuel mileage by reducing internal friction in the engine.

Can I use MMO for winter storage as a fuel stabilizer?
Yes, you can use MMO as a fuel stabilizer. Use 4ozs of Marvel for every 10 gallons of fuel.

[ponch]

My thought is if ethanol varnishes, attracts water and is corrosive. Then............

Marvel Mystery Oil® lubricates the entire fuel system-fuel pumps, fuel injectors or carburetors and the top portion of the cylinders. These are areas, that by design, motor oil does not reach. Using Marvel Mystery Oil in your fuel extends the life of these vital components by providing them with lubrication that fuel alone does not provide.

• Marvel reduces and prevents varnish and gum build-up, two key contributors to robbing engine performance. When you shut off your engine, a miniscule drop of fuel is left at the tip of the fuel injectors or carburetor jets. This miniscule drop off of fuel then solidifies into a varnish type residue. Over time, the accumulated varnish blocks the openings of the injectors or jets, contributing to lower performance and fuel economy and shorter life of these components.

• Spark plug life is also extended by using Marvel in your fuel. It creates a cleaner burning cylinder environment that reduces carbon build-up on spark plugs resulting in better firing plugs that increase performance and durability.

• In addition, Marvel Mystery Oil® improves fuel mileage by reducing internal friction in the engine.

Can I use MMO for winter storage as a fuel stabilizer?
Yes, you can use MMO as a fuel stabilizer. Use 4ozs of Marvel for every 10 gallons of fuel.



And yet no mention of the magical Sea Foam?

[nomadtom69]

Some one mention MMO around work for the small engines lawnmowers and chain saw never thought about it for motorcycle

[Top Cat]

This is exactly what I wanted to happen when I started this thread. Lots of info and opinions.
Sea Foam I believe is a cleaner and is not a help for the ethinol problem. I could be wrong on that.
So far I think I will run 93 octane and 1 oz of Marine Stabil per 10 Gal. in my Drifter.
There is no place near me that sells gas with no ethinol added http://s2.images.proboards.com/angry.gif:(" title=">:(" border="0"/>

[ndbigfish]

Tim,

Seafoam appears to be mostly a cleaner and it smells like it is mostly Xylene or Toluene. I've used it in the past but it is expensive IMHO.

[scott2007nomad]

Didn't read all of the posts so this may have been said already but my experience, mostly with and old carbed Honda motorcycle and and old boat is, make sure you have a fuel filter of at least 40 microns as close to the carbs as possible. Anything less will allow enough trash to block the jets.
Also, don't let the motor sit more that about three weeks. Use it or lose it.

[Top Cat]

Didn't read all of the posts so this may have been said already but my experience, mostly with and old carbed Honda motorcycle and and old boat is, make sure you have a fuel filter of at least 40 microns as close to the carbs as possible. Anything less will allow enough trash to block the jets.
Also, don't let the motor sit more that about three weeks. Use it or lose it.

http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif That's hard to do here in snow country. The bike is not run for 4 to 5 months out of the year. :(

[ringadingh]

I may start looking at the gas around here to see if there is a brand that is still straight gasoline. My bike runs well on the fuel I use (mostly Shell) but Im concerned about my other motors such as my Argo and outboard.

[cnc]

I may start looking at the gas around here to see if there is a brand that is still straight gasoline. My bike runs well on the fuel I use (mostly Shell) but Im concerned about my other motors such as my Argo and outboard.

Steve, I think Ontario is ahead of Quebec on putting ethanol in the gas, but I read there is supposed to be a yellow sticker on a pump when there is ethanol in the gas. I thought it was for all of Canada, but it may be just Quebec. I do regularly get gas at a Mckewen gas station in Ontario and they have and have had for a long time separate pumps for ethanol and regular.

[ringadingh]

Its something Ive never really paid a lot of attention to, I'm not sure if the premium is still gasoline, or would it also have ethanol added to it. After thinking about it I was surprised at how many small motorized pieces of equipment I own. Id hate for them to all start giving me problems at approximately the same time.

[AlabamaNomadRider]

I don't know about Ontario but here in Alabama the pumps have a sticker that says contains up to 10% ethanol. If the pump states that then regular up to and including premium have ethanol in them. If it is pure gas none of the pumps will have this sticker.

Sea Foam is mostly a cleaner but also removes water from the fuel if I remember correctly. Marvel is a lubricant. I usually keep some of each on hand.

[ringadingh]

The pumps here have that yellow sticker as well, Ive never really looked for it on all the pumps, but have seen it on the 87 octane pumps. I'll check into the premium pumps.Id hate to start having to carry an additive around for the fuel.

[58nomad]

Kwik Trip gas stations in the upper midwest realized there was a problem and now they sell their Premium gas labeled as Ethanol Free. There is a tag on each Premium hose stating that it is recomended for small engines and recreational vehicles.

[Top Cat]

I don't think you have to worry about the ethinol in fuel injected engines. It is the carberators that it messes up.

[ndbigfish]

Ethanol plugs injectors and helps to plug fuel filters by desolving deposits in tanks and fuel systems. Just saw this on a friend's truck with only 16K miles. Had to have the injectors cleaned and the fuel filter replaced after running solely Cost** E-10 gas.

[Top Cat]

I stand corrected. I guess ethinol is any vehicle is crap. :)

[ringadingh]

Its all probably a ploy to try and make us buy higher priced premium fuel, while subsidizing farmers. ;)

[nomadtom69]

or buy new ones that will run on up to 85% Ethanol I run Premium in all my mowers chainsaws and weed eaters and Motorcycles

[ponch]

You are not far off. Farmers have a huge lobby and it's the tail wagging the dog. Like CFLs. They contain mercury and abatement wasn't even a concern so long as the politicians look like they are doing something. Well, Ethanol has a lot of consequences, many negative and the progressive types that promulgate it don't care, because in their mind you have to break a few eggs to make a progressive omelet realize there is no free lunch. they'll have us walking in no time.

[ponch]

or buy new ones that will run on up to 85% Ethanol I run Premium in all my mowers chainsaws and weed eaters and Motorcycles

My suburban runs on E85 and you might as well be pouring it on the ground.

[nomadtom69]

Son said Murphy Oil Co in Muffersboro Tn made a Mistake and had 20% in one of their tanks and had alot of repairs on older cars to make it shut them down do not know the details but it was costly to them.

[ponch]

Son said Murphy Oil Co in Muffersboro Tn made a Mistake and had 20% in one of their tanks and had alot of repairs on older cars to make it shut them down do not know the details but it was costly to them.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's higher than 10%. Especially in the winter.

The EPA just made it Ok to add up to 15% Ethanol which is bad for your engine and the environment.

[ndbigfish]

I stand corrected. I guess ethinol is any vehicle is crap. :)

Any product "forced" on the market can not be a good product.

[ponch]

I stand corrected. I guess ethinol is any vehicle is crap. :)

Any product "forced" on the market can not be a good product.

Extend that to almost anything, not just products.

[glwilson]

The EPA just made it Ok to add up to 15% Ethanol which is bad for your engine and the environment.

Bad for the environment? Would like you to elaborate on that more if you would please. http://s2.images.proboards.com/shocked.gif

[ndbigfish]

I think it is pretty well documented that it (ethanol) consumes and ties up more resources than conventional fuel. Farm land with crops planted for fuel are not growing food for the public. I think it is also recognized that ethanol gasoline produces less energy per a given volume of fuel. There fore to travel a given distance I must consume more ethanol than conventional gasoline. I don't claim to be an expert by any means but in my opinion there are too many things that make it undesirable to a great number of folks.

[cnc]

I think it is pretty well documented that it (ethanol) consumes and ties up more resources than conventional fuel. Farm land with crops planted for fuel are not growing food for the public. I think it is also recognized that ethanol gasoline produces less energy per a given volume of fuel. There fore to travel a given distance I must consume more ethanol than conventional gasoline. I don't claim to be an expert by any means but in my opinion there are too many things that make it undesirable to a great number of folks.

Your probably right on much of this and didn't this all start from instability in the middle east? I think I remember reading some body got the idea that the U.S could be less Dependant on these countries if they grew their own fuel and really has not much to do with ethanol being a renewable energy source.

[nomadtom69]

Just spend the money on new refineries and bring our oil home from Alaska instead of shipping it overseas

A study released by the University of Minnesota has come up with some hard facts for ethanol supports: Corn ethanol is just as bad for polluting the air as gasoline. Gasoline costs 71 cents per gallon in environmental and health costs.
Corn ethanol costs 72 cents to $1.45 in environmental and health costs.

The University of California at Berkeley’s Transportation Sustainability Research Center told the California Air Resources Board that ethanol could be twice as bad as gasoline, from a carbon-emissions point of view. How? Basically by turning land now covered with trees, grass, and other natural “carbon sinks” into farmland for corn and other crops used for ethanol. (Ethanol’s dirty secret has also recently been explored by Science and other magazines.)

A new study appearing in the peer-reviewed journal Environmental Science and Technology April 18 finds ethanol a health hazard that would likely increase the number of respiratory-related deaths and hospitalizations. Ethanol is touted as a “green” alternative to gasoline, but the author of the study, Mark Jacobson, says, “It's not green in terms of air pollution.” Jacobson is a civil and environmental engineering professor at Stanford University, who studied atmospheric conditions in 2020 if all vehicles ran on ethanol.

The study found that E85 reduces atmospheric levels of two carcinogens, benzene and butadiene, but increases two others—formaldehyde and acetaldehyde—indicating cancer rates similar to gasoline. However, E85 significantly increases ozone, a prime ingredient in smog. This would increase ozone-related mortalities by about 4 percent in the United States and 9 percent in Los Angeles.

The study noted the deleterious health effects of E85 will be the same, whether the ethanol is made from corn, switchgrass or other plant products.

The new study simply confirms the results of previous studies on this subject. See our posting of September 2006 on “Ethanol Damage” for similar conclusions from studies by the National Academy of Science, the National Center for Atmospheric Research, and the National Research Council. For more, see also our book MAKERS AND TAKERS, available from American Liberty Publishers.

[Sin City Stan]

I think it is pretty well documented that it (ethanol) consumes and ties up more resources than conventional fuel. Farm land with crops planted for fuel are not growing food for the public. I think it is also recognized that ethanol gasoline produces less energy per a given volume of fuel. There fore to travel a given distance I must consume more ethanol than conventional gasoline. I don't claim to be an expert by any means but in my opinion there are too many things that make it undesirable to a great number of folks.

This has always been my point. You use diesel fuel to plow, fertilize, cultivate and pick corn. Then you use natural gas or propane to dry it. Then it's back to diesel to truck it to the ethanol plant. So essentially the oil we use to produce ethanol is more than the ethanol we ultimately create to offset the oil we buy. As I said before, our energy policy is run by fools and scammers.

[ringadingh]

Now it all makes sense, and I see why the government is behind it.

[Cajunrider]

Finished running a tank of ethanol free gasoline. Managed 39.8 mpg. Not much better than the mix.

[cnc]

Finished running a tank of ethanol free gasoline. Managed 39.8 mpg. Not much better than the mix.

I've been getting really super gas milage the last two months. http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

[dogdoc]

TC you can use the Stabil all the time but of course at winterizing for sure.

[Top Cat]

I think that's what I'm going to do in the Drifter Doc.
1/2 oz of the Marine formula to 5 gal. gas for ethinol treatment I read some where.

[waterman]

Ok, another rehash of this. In terms of environmental work out of Stanford and Berkley, they are typically two of the worst on environmental studies. They are left wing enviro's who would rather see us never driving again. There are as many or more studies stating facts the other way. I would love to know where the formaldehyde is coming from in ethanol since it is not used in the whole process. That right there makes me really question the whole study.

As far as using corn for ethanol vs food. When ethanol is produced from corn, the total amount of corn does not totally disappear. There is a by-product called distillers grain that is produced and is utilized for animal feed. The same typical fate for corn if it were not used for ethanol. I think the last analysis I saw was somewhere around 40 to 50% of the corn is digested making ethanol so there is still 50% product remaining. The whole issue of growing fuel takes from the food supply is a huge farce as the vast amount of corn produced goes to animal feeding operations.

As far as using diesel to produce the corn and haul it. That is going to happen no matter what you grow. The farmer is not going to let the land sit idle. He will grow something on it and corn will still be the major crop grown on the land because of the need for livestock feed.

Is E85 the way to go. Probably not since we can not grow that much corn to make much of a dent in the fuel supply. Blends such as E10 are just fine as they do reduce emmissions and it probably about the right amount when figuring what we can produce for ethanol.

As far as biomass ethanol from either switchgrass or crop residues. The whole process right now is to costly just from the quantity of feedstocks that need to be transported. Also, every cost projection shows that the cost of the feedstock being virtually free to the facility. I don't know of a farmer/producer that will sell (or should I state give) their residue for such a low price. The whole biomass ethanol issue will die as a major producer of fuel. Another thing is we would be planting cropland to switchgrass which would very much be consumed by the ethanol process and nothing consumable would be available for us or livestock.

Do I like the subsidies for ethanol, no. Make it compete on its own merit and price structure. As far as the "Taking food off of the table" or "bad for the environment" conversations, they are just blowing smoke up someones a$$.

[Top Cat]

If it clogs the needle jets on the carb of my Drifter then I think it is "bad for my environment" :)

[waterman]

If it clogs the needle jets on the carb of my Drifter then I think it is "bad for my environment" :)

After you get the jets cleaned out, the rest of your system will be sqeaky clean. http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

That is one of the side effects of ethanol. It will clean anything and everything out of the tanks. That was a big issue when it first came out.

[ndbigfish]

I can tell you that my brother-in-law that is a diary farmer and another life long friend that owns a cattle feedlot use no corn used for fuel. We they use field corn and the whole plant is chopped and consumed as silage. They augment silage (corn) with cotton seed, alfalfa hay, etc. These operations are after the optimal (nutrient dense) nutrition to produce milk and meat. Then more than 30% distillers grain is used in a diary cow's diet the milk production and protein concentrations are less. It will be a hard sell to farmers.

[Sin City Stan]

Finished running a tank of ethanol free gasoline. Managed 39.8 mpg. Not much better than the mix.

Should be 3% better.

[skeeter]

Finished running a tank of ethanol free gasoline. Managed 39.8 mpg. Not much better than the mix.

I've been getting really super gas milage the last two months. http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

Leaving the TV on the travel channel while you sit on your bike in the garage? http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

[waterman]

I can tell you that my brother-in-law that is a diary farmer and another life long friend that owns a cattle feedlot use no corn used for fuel. We they use field corn and the whole plant is chopped and consumed as silage. They augment silage (corn) with cotton seed, alfalfa hay, etc. These operations are after the optimal (nutrient dense) nutrition to produce milk and meat. Then more than 30% distillers grain is used in a diary cow's diet the milk production and protein concentrations are less. It will be a hard sell to farmers.

Well I grew up on a dairy as well so I know about that type of production. Fed high moisture corn, alfalfa, a couple of different protein supplements and the general minerals. When the production hit a certain point the cows would loose condition that we could not get back. Added distillers grain at around 2-3 lbs per cow and condition came back as well as a gain in production.

I am assuming that your brother-in-law and friend are in North Dakota. Hate to say it but there is not the corn production in North Dakota as well as the ethanol production so supply of the by products is limited. Shipping is the killer on them as they try to sell them wet with the cost of drying would jump prices substantially.

I would beg to differ on the hard sell to farmers. The distillers grain in many locations is spoken for by feedlots and dairies. Generally fed at less than 30% of the ration. The biggest key is access to the product. We have 2 plants within 30 miles of here and they have everything booked going out.

[58nomad]

Thanks Joel, well stated!!