Good news - Bad news

[Idaho]

The Good news as several of you know is that I just bought a MIG welder to try to learn how to weld so that I can get the price of my jack adapters down to make them more affordable. I have a welding helmet on the way and I'm looking forward to this adventure.

The Bad News is that my jack adapter design has been ripped off and is now being sold on E-Bay. GRRRRRRRr. I just posted in our for sale section that I have four adapters available for my cost if anyone wants them. I need the cash for further development.

So let's hope that I can learn to weld and turn these out cheaper than the rat ba$tard who ripped off my design. I really want to continue to do this and provide a great product that will be a good value and get these bikes lifted safely.

[Loafer]

The Good news as several of you know is that I just bought a MIG welder to try to learn how to weld so that I can get the price of my jack adapters down to make them more affordable. I have a welding helmet on the way and I'm looking forward to this adventure.

The Bad News is that my jack adapter design has been ripped off and is now being sold on E-Bay. GRRRRRRRr. I just posted in our for sale section that I have four adapters available for my cost if anyone wants them. I need the cash for further development.

So let's hope that I can learn to weld and turn these out cheaper than the rat ba$tard who ripped off my design. I really want to continue to do this and provide a great product that will be a good value and get these bikes lifted safely.

If I ever get a lift, I would buy the adapter from you. Quality builds quality stuff. ;) Change you advertising ideas, and people will buy from you rather than someone using inferior materials and workmanship. Good luck.

[ponch]

I wonder if he bought one from you? Do you know who he is?


The Good news as several of you know is that I just bought a MIG welder to try to learn how to weld so that I can get the price of my jack adapters down to make them more affordable. I have a welding helmet on the way and I'm looking forward to this adventure.

The Bad News is that my jack adapter design has been ripped off and is now being sold on E-Bay. GRRRRRRRr. I just posted in our for sale section that I have four adapters available for my cost if anyone wants them. I need the cash for further development.

So let's hope that I can learn to weld and turn these out cheaper than the rat ba$tard who ripped off my design. I really want to continue to do this and provide a great product that will be a good value and get these bikes lifted safely.

[Idaho]

Ponch I have no idea who this is. His E-Bay posting does not list a location.

Loafer, I appreciate the sentiment. I can't guarantee what the quality will be like from now on because I really do have to learn to weld and start from ground zero.

[ringadingh]

That really sucks, hopefully its not a member here that did that.
Making them yourself should allow you to be able to produce them for a lot less.
Some metal suppliers have a scrap bin where they sell cutoffs at a greatly reduced price. Since you only require rather short lenths of tubing, it would be worth your while to check out some vendors. It could save you a bunch on your material costs.

[Idaho]

We have a couple of steel suppliers here in town and I plan to visit both of them.

[ringadingh]

If you have a place that fabricates iron railings or trailers, they should use a lot of square tubing as well, and may sell you some cutoffs rather cheap.

[Idaho]

Ring!! That is a great idea. Now my search has expanded.

[ringadingh]

Once the better weather hits youll have a reason to go riding around looking for your metal. And you can bring the smaller bits home on the bike. ;)

[Idaho]

I like the way you think Ring. Thanks again

[Cajunrider]

Bud, if you haven't already, build yourself a jig that you drop all of the pieces in to tack them up. No framing square or diagonal measurements needed. Saves plenty of time. Also, if you don't have a circular chop saw, look into one. Saves a whole lot of time and makes square cuts every time. You just have to pass a small triangular file inside of the square tubing to get the sharp knife edge out.

[rickyboy]

Is it too late to get a patten number on the adapter?? Might be money well spent. I'm just trying to think if there's a way to stop the rip off guy from doing business. That's how I think.

[Idaho]

Ricky, I've been selling these online since the fall of 2007. Apparently to get a patent you have to apply before they are made available to the public. I'm screwed unless I can get my costs down. I will.

Good idea Mitch. I may be buying more tools before this is all over. I'm already thinking about a paint booth of sorts. Don't want to paint these in my garage. Wife would be mad forever if I try to paint them in the basement. fumes and all.

I am going to ask the machinist who has been making these for me if he has a jig that I can buy from him. I will bet that he does but the question will be whether he is willing to sell it to me. We will see. He and I have done a lot of business over the years so who knows.

[rickyboy]

That's what I figured. Well good luck Bud. I pretty much taught myself how to weld. So I'm sure you'll have no problem. I hear you about a place to do things though. I would be doing a few things if I only had a place,....i.e. shop, to do it all in. I had a good friend that let me set up a small area in his shop to do whatever I wanted to do to my bike, car, or whatever. It was great. Unfortunately for him he had a dental problem and didn't take some medication for an infection and the poison got into his system and he passed away on us. I miss his friendship a lot. I miss the opportunity he gave to me so freely also. .....................

I believe things happen for a reason. Maybe having your idea ripped off is to get you to learn to weld, and move on and produce, and maybe expand on your adapter. You might find this to be a good thing, is what I'm trying to say. Turn this negative into a positive.

best of luck Bud, you'll do great!

[Cajunrider]

Ricky, I've been selling these online since the fall of 2007. Apparently to get a patent you have to apply before they are made available to the public. I'm screwed unless I can get my costs down. I will.

Good idea Mitch. I may be buying more tools before this is all over. I'm already thinking about a paint booth of sorts. Don't want to paint these in my garage. Wife would be mad forever if I try to paint them in the basement. fumes and all.

I am going to ask the machinist who has been making these for me if he has a jig that I can buy from him. I will bet that he does but the question will be whether he is willing to sell it to me. We will see. He and I have done a lot of business over the years so who knows.

Bud, you can put a jig together quickly and easily with a sheet of 3/16 or 1/4" plate just a little bigger in area than your jack adapters. Take one of the adapters already built and lay it on top of the plate. Cut some clips out of flatbar or square tubing and stand them up alongside and at the ends of the tubing. Weld them down with the adapter in place and allow everything to cool down. If the adapter is too snug to lift out you may have to slightly adjust the clips by tapping them with a hammer until the adapter can be lifted out easily. Lift the adapter out and you have your jig ready to drop the pre-cut individual pieces in for tacking up. No need to square anything up. The jig will hold everything square and lined up perfectly.

On another note, my Dad paid $10,000+ for a patent on a prototype of adjustable masonry scaffolds he invented. He couldn't get anybody to mass produce them for him. He was leary about building them himself because of liability issues. That money went down the drain. This was about 25 years ago.

[ringadingh]

Once you get setup to make them you should also put a couple on Ebay yourself, market them as the original adapter not the cheap knockoff found elsewhere on Ebay. Or offer to make them for the other guy.

[redjay]

Hi Idaho. I know you make the adapters to help us out and probably do not make much money on them. They are certainly not overpriced and they work great. I dont know how many you make in a year or what the guy on Ebay charges for his. I somehow doubt many on this forum will buy them from Ebay. Your product is tried and tested. If you just want to get your price down to sell more to undercut the guy on Ebay I would wait and see if your sales drop off. Either way there is nothing wrong in trying to produce them cheaper and learning to weld. Mig welding is not difficult once you get the basics and the welder settings sorted out.
Good Luck.

[cactusjack]

Bud,

I am sorry to hear someone stole your design. Your adapter is worth every cent I paid for it.

I just went and found the ad on eBay. Boy, you'd think this guy found a cure for cancer or something. He claims it's the only one on the market, too. ::)

[jestephens]

Once you get setup to make them you should also put a couple on Ebay yourself, market them as the original adapter not the cheap knockoff found elsewhere on Ebay. Or offer to make them for the other guy.

That's EXACTLY what I was going to say. Market yourself as the original. http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

My employer has been making a particular concept for 20 years and just recently the product became an ISO standard for the application in industry. We couldn't be more excited, but now we have competition.
So we market ourselves as the original with 20 years experience.

When you go to market on eBay, be sure to gather some customer testimonies from the guys here at KawaNOW who have bought from YOU. - sorry, I don't have a lift, or your adapter, but now I know where I'm going to buy one when that time comes.

Best of luck!! http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

[Idaho]

I appreciate the support from all of you. If you look at the E-Bay listing you will see that he is charging a total of 76 dollars with shipping. Very close to what I'm charging. If I can learn to weld these together and find a good source of material as Ring has suggested then we will all win.

And, then I will post on Ebay and put him out of business.

[biscuitsngravy]

Go for it, Bud! It's not so hard to learn to weld. But if you don't have one already, get yourself a hand held grinder too as it can dress up a weld that may have "character". They don't cost much at Harbor Freight. BnG

[carolinakid1]

Hope the guy that ripped you off is not this guy at http://garage-toys.com/unmoad.html.

[ponch]

One thought: I hope it isn't the guy that makes them for you. May be he wanted to cut out the middle man.

[Bdog]

Bud..that sucks!! As you know, I made my own basically from your design...so I thank you. I praise your product to everyone who inquires about adaptors because you are a brother here and most importantly..you make a great product at a reasonable price. This competition from whoever this guy is should put a spark under your butt. It seems it has worked by the sounds of you getting your own welder..great..then as Ring has mentioned..get a better deal on materials. Search for better shipping costs..come up with more applications to other brands or models of bikes...advertise on a broader horizon. Quit your day job, because you will be so busy...then sit back and admire your endeavors...Bdog

[macmac]

Ouch! that just sets me off.

[Top Cat]

Hope the guy that ripped you off is not this guy at http://garage-toys.com/unmoad.html.
I'm curious, why do you hope it is not that guy ???

[macmac]

me too.

And the guy that ripped Bud off is in Morristown, TN

He did rip Bud off too, since TC and Bud cut a deal with me I couldn't refuse http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

At one point Bud and I chatted about the design, as i was thinking of a slight altering, which never happened and there the blooming thing exactly the same as old pattern.

Maybe Bud you should reconsider that change.

man when i saw the foliage I was upset.

But when I saw
KAWASAKI,VULCA​N,CLASSIC, NOMAD, MEANSTREAK JACK ADAPTER
LOOK - #1 BEST TOOL & HANDIEST ITEM 1500/1600 cc MODELS
Location: Morristown, TN Watch this item
Location: Morristown, TN
Location: Morristown, TN

I knew ya just missed it.

Who ever that is, has one of yours, or did.

[ponch]

me too.

And the guy that ripped Bud off is in Morristown, TN

He did rip Bud off too, since TC and Bud cut a deal with me I couldn't refuse http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

At one point Bud and I chatted about the design, as i was thinking of a slight altering, which never happened and there the blooming thing exactly the same as old pattern.

Maybe Bud you should reconsider that change.

man when i saw the foliage I was upset.

But when I saw
KAWASAKI,VULCA​N,CLASSIC, NOMAD, MEANSTREAK JACK ADAPTER
LOOK - #1 BEST TOOL & HANDIEST ITEM 1500/1600 cc MODELS
Location: Morristown, TN Watch this item
Location: Morristown, TN
Location: Morristown, TN

I knew ya just missed it.

Who ever that is, has one of yours, or did.

May be Tony Soprano should make a visit to Tennessee...:)

[macmac]

I passed thru that town back in 06 on my ride. From a legal standpoint there isn't much Bud can do. I bet in Buds records he has sold that item to someone near by and or the new maker bought one himself.

It's just too bad some people see no problem stepping on another guys toes.

[ponch]

I passed thru that town back in 06 on my ride. From a legal standpoint there isn't much Bud can do. I bet in Buds records he has sold that item to someone near by and or the new maker bought one himself.

It's just too bad some people see no problem stepping on another guys toes.

Since you have narrowed it down to Tennessee, I wonder if they have graced this forum?

[ponch]

I passed thru that town back in 06 on my ride. From a legal standpoint there isn't much Bud can do. I bet in Buds records he has sold that item to someone near by and or the new maker bought one himself.

It's just too bad some people see no problem stepping on another guys toes.

We have two members from Morristown Tennessee...

[Jared]

I'I’m not in any means saying that it is morally okay to copy someone else’s idea, but there is/was a way to protect your design and you opted not to. If the other guy is able to make it, market it, sell it at a better price, isn't that what the free market is all about? Now, you will be forced to create a better design, at a lower price, in order to get people’s attention. I say take this step back as a lesson. Make it slightly better and get a patent. JMO

[Top Cat]

I'I’m not in any means saying that it is morally okay to copy someone else’s idea, but there is/was a way to protect your design and you opted not to. If the other guy is able to make it, market it, sell it at a better price, isn't that what the free market is all about? Now, you will be forced to create a better design, at a lower price, in order to get people’s attention. I say take this step back as a lesson. Make it slightly better and get a patent. JMO
Jared, This is no time to be sensible. We want revenge. ;) http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

[ponch]

I'I’m not in any means saying that it is morally okay to copy someone else’s idea, but there is/was a way to protect your design and you opted not to. If the other guy is able to make it, market it, sell it at a better price, isn't that what the free market is all about? Now, you will be forced to create a better design, at a lower price, in order to get people’s attention. I say take this step back as a lesson. Make it slightly better and get a patent. JMO

You are right, but we are a small community. It's like pissing in the hot tub. While the guy had a right to do it, it still isn't nice or whatever word you want to use. Probably what strikes as dishonest is that it wasn't even an original idea. The guy is a second hander.

[cactusjack]

There's no indication the builder owns a Nomad. Sure he has a Nomad in his advertising, but that could have been someone else's bike. No sense going on a witch hunt here. As Jared pointed out, the competitor may have been somewhat unethical, but he did nothing illegal.

Emerson said "Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door". Well, in this case it may be a slightly less expensive mousetrap.

[ponch]

There's no indication the builder owns a Nomad. Sure he has a Nomad in his advertising, but that could have been someone else's bike. No sense going on a witch hunt here. As Jared pointed out, the competitor may have been somewhat unethical, but he did nothing illegal.

Emerson said "Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door". Well, in this case it may be a slightly less expensive mousetrap.



Tru dat and it was a learning experience for all.

[glwilson]

Price is always an issue in the absence of value. Please don't forget that.

Being the "cheapest" isn't the way to go in my opinion. You win this "war" by providing the "Original", highest-quality product on the market that has been time-tested and has "loads" of testimony to its quality.

Secondly; I would plant the seeds of doubt about the quality of my competitor(s) product. This can be done easily and without sounding like you are directly slamming anyone else's product.

Basically, what I am saying is... market the Idaho Jack Adapter as the "Original" adapter; made with top-quality at a price that affords its quality. Bud... don't forget to sell it on those points.

Getting into a price-war is a bit like a p!ssing contest; which does nothing more than get p!ss on everyone involved. No one wins.

I would opt for keeping the price where it is... while taking claim to being the highest quality by the original designer who has years of experience.... while casting doubt as to a competitor's quality.

Think about it... does anyone want to drop their Nomad because of buying a lower-quality unit that costs just a few bucks less?

I think you see my point. ;)

Bud, I can send you a PM on a couple links to products that do exactly what I am saying.

[Idaho]

You guys all make some great points. Now that I have cooled off and have a plan developed it does indeed look like I will be able to produce these and get my costs down. It will mean that I have to do some of the labor but that will keep me busy and give me some satisfaction of a job well done.

Greg, I have had exactly those same thoughts about the best way to post on E-Bay. It will indeed tout the ORIGINAL Idaho Jack Adapter. And talk about the selling points that I think will seperate mine from others. One big item is the machined steel block vs the plates welded to the side. We considered that design and dismissed it because we felt that the machined blocks were stronger. I really don't want one of these to give way under someones ride. Another point I am going to make is that mine are all powdercoated for looks and durability. I have seen both and the powdercoat just makes a much nicer finish.

I'm getting very close to going into production. Just need some parts for the welder and a little practice to be able to make a clean weld.

As to the price. I may have enough room in the new finished product that I can still lower it from where I have been selling them. I will know as soon as I have some together and count up all of the current unknowns. (mostly welding supplies)

In a way this is a good thing because as some of you have said it spurred me into action to come up with a more efficient and cost effective way to make these. I was comfortable before because I was selling just enough to help with tires and oil and still keep the cost down. This has been a good thing.

I have to tell you that Joe Norris, aka Chuckster, has been a huge help here and I need to throw kudos his way. Thanks Joe.

Thank you all for your support. I'm proud to be a part of this site.

[Cajunrider]

Bud, I know that this will all work out OK for you. I learned a long time ago that honesty and integrity always pay off in the long run. I've been involved in bidding out very large projects at our plant and the lowest bidder doesn't always get the job. Especially if that bidder is significantly lower than the other two or three bidding. Those that bid extremely high are usually swamped with work but bid high knowing they won't get the project but their name remains in the pool. Those that bid extrememly low will end up cutting corners to break even and worst case run out of capital. The job with a firm deadline comes to a halt with suppliers holding a lean on material and sub-contractors not getting paid for their labor. It ends up becoming a nightmare and the company the project is being built for ends up holding the bag. Not everyone looks at it this way with some not looking for quality workmanship over a dirt cheap price. They end up learning the hard way. As Greg and others has said, advertise your product as the original stressing quality material and workmanship and you won't go wrong. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress. I wish we were closer. I'd have you burning wire like an expert in a matter of days.

[macmac]

Bud you can make 2 models a shorter one like I talked with you about which might be the New and improved, but a choice for the Original is alwayan option.

[Idaho]

Mac, I am going to make them shorter as per your suggestion. Just one model.

[Top Cat]

What does shorter gain? Just askin'

[Dave]

What would happens if the other guy patent's the adapter. Would Bud be screwed then?

[Loafer]

What would happens if the other guy patent's the adapter. Would Bud be screwed then?

Bud needs to contact a pattent attorney. If they prove that there are numerous adapters available. The patent office might refuse to give anyone a patent.

[rickyboy]

What would happens if the other guy patent's the adapter. Would Bud be screwed then?

Hey !! very good point. I was wondering the same when someone said that the item was already "out there" and Bud left it too late/long. Seems to me that if I made something, I could wait till whenever I wanted to patent it. If there is no patent on the adapter what's stopping this "yah - who" from putting one on it? I hope you {Bud} slap a patent on the "new and improved" one, at least.

Is there a lawyer in the house!!! ?

[Loafer]

What would happens if the other guy patent's the adapter. Would Bud be screwed then?

Hey !! very good point. I was wondering the same when someone said that the item was already "out there" and Bud left it too late/long. Seems to me that if I made something, I could wait till whenever I wanted to patent it. If there is no patent on the adapter what's stopping this "yah - who" from putting one on it? I hope you {Bud} slap a patent on the "new and improved" one, at least.

Is there a lawyer in the house!!! ?

Getting a patent is harder than some realize and very costly. Bud needs to contact a patent atty. and see if he has any options.

[Cajunrider]

Hey !! very good point. I was wondering the same when someone said that the item was already "out there" and Bud left it too late/long. Seems to me that if I made something, I could wait till whenever I wanted to patent it. If there is no patent on the adapter what's stopping this "yah - who" from putting one on it? I hope you {Bud} slap a patent on the "new and improved" one, at least.

Is there a lawyer in the house!!! ?

Getting a patent is harder than some realize and very costly. Bud needs to contact a patent atty. and see if he has any options.

I mentioned in the other thread about my Dad spending over $10,000 on a patent that never left the ground. It was a brilliant invention that he built a prototype of that no one would mass produce. It was a painfull learning experience. The tough part about the whole patent ordeal is you can't show the prototype to anyone while seeking manufacturers because they can steal it right out from under you. Invest the money for the patent and hope someone will produce it. Big gamble.

[Top Cat]

My nephew is trying to get a patent on an invention he came up with.
He and his investors are in $11,000 now and it has been a year and a half, still in the patent attorneys hands. ::)

[ringadingh]

I think it would come down to proving who's idea it was first, before a patent could be issued.
I doubt it would worth all the legal expense to figure it out, and even if it was patented Im not sure if the costs would ever be recovered for such an item. I doubt you could sell enough of them to ever make it pay off.
I would copy some of the other guys adapters and start selling them as well.

[ponch]

I doubt this guy is going to patent anything. The market for the product and potential profit wouldn't justify the costs in patenting it. If he did, Bud could prove very easily his was first. This guy just wants to make a buck.

[Jared]

You can at least write patent pending on your product. If you do that, and someone copies you, you can apply for a patent and if the patent is granted, the person who copied you would have to back pay you.

[Jared]

Here's some basic information about the cost of a patent. Honestly, not too sure why you would need to go to an attorny. Everything that you would need is available online. I would only go to an attorny for something that I felt was extremely valuable.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5012909_how-much-does-cost-patent.html

[Loafer]

Here's some basic information about the cost of a patent. Honestly, not too sure why you would need to go to an attorney. Everything that you would need is available on line. I would only go to an attorney for something that I felt was extremely valuable.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5012909_how-much-does-cost-patent.html

I suppose if you are fluent in legalese, on line would be the way to go. A one time meeting with a atty. who specializes, is something I would do. They would be able to tell you everything in about 45 minutes, and what the odds are of succeeding. IMO

[macmac]

TC Bud and I discussed a few ideas, which he is free to use from me as he pleases.

One reason shorter is good is that reduces weight and costs. 'IF' he can work out more adapters with less stock and 0 waste he saves a buck.

Bud had a few other ideas which added up to why these adapters are the size they are. (Not open for discussion by me)

IMO Bud should make both the ORIGINAL and the NEW Model.

The other guy has 2 for sale. Everyone here should know they are clones exactly of Buds stolen work.

The other guy branched out for yammi, but that is a take off of Buds work too. It ain't rocket science, it's more a matter of honor.

My bike is in it's trailer or I would go out and install the adpter and look a lot harder. besides what Bud and i tawked about there could still be room for improvements, maybe even add-ons to and for a reason, I don't know jus' sayin.

I know that if I wanted to make these adapaters i could, and i know if it was done right Bud would get a worked out % of everyone i made and sold. But then I have something no man can buy, or atleast I think I do.

If that other guy had any honor he would have called Bud and worked out a deal. I am certain that who ever it is some how got his hands on a Buds' Adapter and swiped the idea.

To me it's the idea, you guys call it patent, that matters. I dream up stuff like this everyday.

The other day a mc clock I got had the battery die. It's a 10 dollar clock and the tool to unscrew the water tight back is 12 bucks.

I hope I didn't say all this on page 3.

I had no tool I could think of that would remove the back off this clock and I am not going to buy a 12 dollar tool to fix a 10 dollar clock once or even twice. By the time twice comes I will have forgot where I put the bloomin tool anyway.

I went to bed with that problem in my head and in a dream it came to me my old calipers that don't even have a dial indicator would work. Set the jaws the next morning and they fit the slots, and the back wound right off that blasted clock.

I got Quaker State green oil bottle turn sig indicators in my cage because I lost the oem disks that should be there. Well a few years ago now i found the oem ones and lost them again http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

Sometimes what you need it right there in another form and all ya gotta do is take the part away that don't look just right.

Of course when all else fails ask a woman. They have been at puffin things up and out and any place else for a few thousand years.

[glwilson]

Once a product has been published in a magazine, the internet, or any other such source to the public... or has been offered for sale to the public without a patent-pending application you may no longer patent the idea. It has been rendered to the "public-domain".

Sorry... but I learned this the hard way myself several years ago; and the law has not changed. ;)

[ponch]

Once a product has been published in a magazine, the internet, or any other such source to the public... or has been offered for sale to the public without a patent-pending application you may no longer patent the idea. It has been rendered to the "public-domain".

Sorry... but I learned this the hard way myself several years ago; and the law has not changed. ;)



The originator can't, or no one can?

[glwilson]

No one.

I had designed a way in which to "tune" drums in a "unitized" fashion. I had my preliminary drawings re-drawn by a professional.

I was in the process of applying for a patent and having the design made (through a pattern-maker and a tool-maker).

Mid-way through all of it, the attorney's search discovered a person from England had designed virtually the exact same design I had (I promise I didn't steal it or know anything about the other design).

The other person's design was published in "Drummers" magazine. He did not have a patent, nor one applied for.

The attorney said this effectually makes the design "un-patentable" by him or me since it is now officially rendered to the "public-domain".

So... after quit a bit of money, I was out cold; and so was the other person. Later on, I contacted this person and he did not know the laws either otherwise he wouldn't have had the article published. He too could not patent the design. I have long ago lost contact with him since; but I know that no one is making this design either -- thus it was likely not a viable design anyway -- which may be just as well this ended as it did before either of us spent any more money on it.

[Idaho]

Greg is correct. I already sorted through the patent rules online. As soon as I started to sell these the window to obtain a patent closed. The only way to get a patent on a new idea/item is to do so before the item is made public.

That's okay. I can still produce a better product and compete. Who knows? Maybe I will look at my buddies yamaha to see what it takes to lift one of those beasties.

[Loafer]

Now your talking.... ;)

[Jared]

Here's some basic information about the cost of a patent. Honestly, not too sure why you would need to go to an attorney. Everything that you would need is available on line. I would only go to an attorney for something that I felt was extremely valuable.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5012909_how-much-does-cost-patent.html

I suppose if you are fluent in legalese, on line would be the way to go. A one time meeting with a atty. who specializes, is something I would do. They would be able to tell you everything in about 45 minutes, and what the odds are of succeeding. IMO

My wife worked as a legal secretary for long time and is now going through law school, so I guess I'm used to hearing the legalese. It was suppressing to me how much she was able to do as the secretary.

[carolinakid1]

I think I recently saw on tv that Legal Zoom has a document for patents. Don't know its value, but may warrant someone checking into.

[macmac]

Bud, want me to buy that guys yammi rig and send it to you http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif Wonder how he'ld llike that?

Prolly stole that off someone else I guess..

[Idaho]

Bud, want me to buy that guys yammi rig and send it to you http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif Wonder how he'ld llike that?

Prolly stole that off someone else I guess..

That's good Mac. No need. I will bet that I can figure that rig out if I take a mind to. I have a feeling I will be busy enough keeping up with my own.

[macmac]

I was feeling evil Bud. Just like that guy to see a pic of his work in another color with an add.

[Idaho]

I was feeling evil Bud. Just like that guy to see a pic of his work in another color with an add.

I know Mac. I've had the same thoughts.

[Bdog]

Bud..sounds like ya got a pretty big fire under your butt right now. You'll do just fine with your endeavors. Its allways good to stop, reavaluate your situation and come up with a new game plan. You can thank that guy for the spark. Now get out there and beat the crapp out of him with products and sales..John

[Idaho]

Hi John, I'm working on it. Spending a ton of money to get everything together. Today I spent another $250 on a bottle of welding gas. Too cold to do anything in the garage right now so I will have to wait until Wednesday to get more practice in. My machinist gave me his frame that he used to line up the jack adapters to tack weld them. He also gave me a bunch of steel tubing to practice with. Now we are gonna have fun.

[minst7877]

Remember to keep that bottle of gas shut off except when you are welding with it. Those valves can leak around the stems when they are on and it's a real downer to go back and find out that a half full bottle is empty. Don't ask how I know this leave it as I have lived and learned.

DC

[Idaho]

Remember to keep that bottle of gas shut off except when you are welding with it. Those valves can leak around the stems when they are on and it's a real downer to go back and find out that a half full bottle is empty. Don't ask how I know this leave it as I have lived and learned.

DC

I watched a DIY video on welding that gave that very same advice last night. Must be a common problem huh?

Thanks for the advice.

I also learned how to take care of the torch. Went out Sunday and bought a jar of nozzle jell then I cleaned up the nozzle and tip properly. Lots to learn on the 'net.

[Cajunrider]

A wire welder's best friend is a pair of needlenose pliers for cutting the wire at the end of the tip and scraping the spattered metal from the inside of the nozzle. I've never used the gel....I don't think it was around in the mid 70's when I was doing alot of short arc work. There was an aerosol can of stuff called anti-spatter. It kept the molten spatter from sticking in the nozzle, temporarily. If your gas regulator is the same as they used to be you will have a small knob on a sight glass where a tiny ball floats along the graduations on the sight glass. This adjusts your gas flow at the nozzle. If you are working in a shop where wind isn't a factor, 25-30 was always a good setting for me. Too much gas causes more spatter and a black color to the weld. Outside in the wind always requires more gas to shield the arc in which the sole purpose is to prevent clusters of pinholes in the weld (porrosity). As was said earlier, always close the valve on the cylinder when you are finished or taking a break over 15 minutes or longer. Argon gas is very expensive. The purer the Argon, the more expensive it is. Close the small knob before opening the cylinder valve and adjust your gas flow/pressure with the small knob each time you get ready to weld. It is important that you open the cylinder valve very slowly so as not to rupture the diaphragm in the regulator. I'm glad your machinist gave you the line up jig. That will save you much time in tacking up the adapters without having to square everything off with a square and measuring diagonally with a tape measure. Tack each side of the tubing before beginning to weld it out to prevent the heat from drawing the adapter off square. Good luck Bud. I know you will pick it up quickly and do well with your projects.

[macmac]

Oh yeah I turn my bottles off 3 times... i stand there like a fool counting out loud too. Once i really screwed up and lost a lot of gas that way, never again......

Once off, twice off, thrice OFF, and test once more..

[Idaho]

You would be surprised what you can learn online. One video that I watched talked briefly about the MIG pliers. Did not know why I needed them but I bought them. Then another video showed me how to use them. Same video talked about how to SLOWLY crack open the gas bottle to keep from blowing out the regulator.

I've already woke up thinking about making sure that I turn the bottle off. Trust me, I'm so tight I squeak and I don't want to just blow out a hundred bucks of gas. I think I like Macs procedure.

I stopped by a steel fabrication business today after work and picked up a 3X5 steel plate and some square tubing to make a welding table. I'm going to weld six inch pieces of 2 inch tube onto one side near the corners about 8 inches in. and cut 1 1/2 inch tube legs to fit inside those pieces. That way I can put the table together and take it down when I need to have my garage back.

It sounds good anyway.

[chuckster131]

Bud,
That is great news to hear that the plan is coming together. You should have those pieces I machined today or maybe you received them yesterday.

[Yellow Jacket]

Bud, even though it's too late to get a patent, what about getting a copyright on the name "Idaho Jack Adapter?" That might be worthwhile.

[Idaho]

Joe, have not seen anything yet. I still have to build my welding table and get more stuff mucked out of the garage. I'm taking Friday off of work to do just that. Before the weekend is over I will have kits ready to powdercoat. I'll let you know as soon as your shipment arrives.

Bob, I had not thought about a copyright. Wonder what that takes? Hmmmmm.

[cactusjack]

It sounds like you're on the right track here Bud. I like welding - maybe not if I had to do it all day, though. Back in high school a couple of buddies and I had a little enterprise going. We would fabricate grill guards and roll bars in metal shop and then install them on people's 4x4's in vocational auto mechanics class. Made a few bucks, enough to buy beer at least.

[ringadingh]

I new a fella that would mail his idea to himself in an envelope and leave it sealed. That way he had the dated post mark as proof of when his copywright was submitted. This would be opened by a lawyer or Judge if there was ever a dispute.
Im not sure how good this would stand up, but in theary its proof of when you submitted your idea.

[Idaho]

Here is an update on the adapter project.

My new Clarke MIG welder from Cal Ranch farm supply had a 4mm gas supply tube plumbed in but no suitable gas connector. I lost a couple of hundred pounds of argon/co2 before I discovered that mess. So I ditched the cheap connector and bought a short piece of 1/4 inch tube and a package of heat shrink tubing. I replaced the connector on my flow regulator with a 1/4 inch barbed fitting and pushed the tubing on and secured it with a hose clamp. Then I cut several successively larger diameter pieces of heat shrink and built up the 4mm tube until it fit snug in the 1/4 inch tube. I shoved it inside the tube and stopped short of pushing it all the way in until I could brush on some crazy glue then I shoved that in and it made a very tight seal. Secured it with another hose clamp and it is tight. When I turned off the gas three days ago I left a little pressure in the line and it is still there. That's tight!

I bought a chop saw at Harbor Freight that turned out to be a noisy POC. Needing 48 feet of 1 inch square steel tube cut up I had to wait until Tuesday to contact my machinist. He gave me a great deal on cutting it up and I picked it up this afternoon. This evening I ran a file over all of the ends inside and out to remove burrs and sharp edges. They are now ready to be welded together. ( I am going to return the chop saw and pick up a nice band saw )

My drill press, that I have had for 20 years, suffered a failure of the on/off switch while I was fabricating my welding table. I rigged up a house light switch and was able to continue with production. (A new switch arrived in the mail today from Utah so my drill press is whole again) Yesterday I got the holes all drilled in the steel blocks that Joe (Chuckster) machined for me. Boy, does he do nice work!!

Oh, the welding table went together a good as I hoped it would. Steady as a rock 3x4 feet 1/4 inch steel plate that is just the right height for me to stand and work comfortably. Also, it is easilly torn down and stowed away.

So, I have everything ready to start welding kits together tomorrow afternoon when I get home from work. Then, they will go to powdercoat and should be ready early next week. I will let you all know.

Several fits and starts but all in all it has been fun.

[Cajunrider]

Sounds like it's steadily coming together. Good luck Bud.

[ponch]

Here is an update on the adapter project.

My new Clarke MIG welder from Cal Ranch farm supply had a 4mm gas supply tube plumbed in but no suitable gas connector. I lost a couple of hundred pounds of argon/co2 before I discovered that mess. So I ditched the cheap connector and bought a short piece of 1/4 inch tube and a package of heat shrink tubing. I replaced the connector on my flow regulator with a 1/4 inch barbed fitting and pushed the tubing on and secured it with a hose clamp. Then I cut several successively larger diameter pieces of heat shrink and built up the 4mm tube until it fit snug in the 1/4 inch tube. I shoved it inside the tube and stopped short of pushing it all the way in until I could brush on some crazy glue then I shoved that in and it made a very tight seal. Secured it with another hose clamp and it is tight. When I turned off the gas three days ago I left a little pressure in the line and it is still there. That's tight!

I bought a chop saw at Harbor Freight that turned out to be a noisy POC. Needing 48 feet of 1 inch square steel tube cut up I had to wait until Tuesday to contact my machinist. He gave me a great deal on cutting it up and I picked it up this afternoon. This evening I ran a file over all of the ends inside and out to remove burrs and sharp edges. They are now ready to be welded together. ( I am going to return the chop saw and pick up a nice band saw )

My drill press, that I have had for 20 years, suffered a failure of the on/off switch while I was fabricating my welding table. I rigged up a house light switch and was able to continue with production. (A new switch arrived in the mail today from Utah so my drill press is whole again) Yesterday I got the holes all drilled in the steel blocks that Joe (Chuckster) machined for me. Boy, does he do nice work!!

Oh, the welding table went together a good as I hoped it would. Steady as a rock 3x4 feet 1/4 inch steel plate that is just the right height for me to stand and work comfortably. Also, it is easilly torn down and stowed away.

So, I have everything ready to start welding kits together tomorrow afternoon when I get home from work. Then, they will go to powdercoat and should be ready early next week. I will let you all know.

Several fits and starts but all in all it has been fun.

This place is a life saver: http://www1.mscdirect.com/cgi/nnsrhm

They used to have an outlet on LI when I lived there. Once I broke a tap in a block and needed a tap extractor. They were the only place that had one.

[Idaho]

Thanks Ponch. My collection of short cuts is getting rather long now. This is a good thing.

I will have to spend some time on that site.

[ringadingh]

It sounds like your almost there Bud, Its amazing at how many gremlins appear on some projects.
I have a cheap Harbour Freight 14" chop saw, and I bought it for one large project I was doing a few years ago. While its not as good as the Milwaukee saw we had a t work, it did the job and is still running today.

[billmac]

I have bought a several items from Idaho. I knew he was an active Kawanow member and would probably be supportive. The price always seemed very fair to me.

Honestly, I was shocked at the fine quality of the Idaho adapter. It looked like it needed to be hung on the wall, not touching the dirty underside of my Nomad. :) I certainly was not expecting such precise welds and classy paint job. I just wanted something to help raise the Nomad.

The sets of risers, the intake parts, have also been of the highest quality too. I was glad they looked so nice.

I hope there is sufficient profit in these sales that Idaho will continue to provide products and consider more. I doubt his profit would justify all the costs associated with patents and lawyers.

I like good service and support. That's worth something. I have heard stories about Ebay and I just got through an ordeal with Harbour Freight customer service. What a joke that is.

However it all turns out, I would rather do business with a Nomad rider and Kawanow member, if possible.

[macmac]

Bud I don't undersatand what was wrong..... The bottle you have does have a regulator on it right? There should be a regulator that can go on and off the welder. You should not have to make this stuff up, unless someone took it or broke it.

If this were oxy actelen about now i would be going thru the roof in fear you would kill yourself.

You can't get very dead if you screw the pooch here though..... just make sure there is air to breath.

[Idaho]

yea Mac. No worry about air to breathe. I crack open the doors and windows to let fresh air in. Not enough to blow away the shield gas, just enough to keep my lungs happy. I'm not worried about the gas connection. The fix that I came up with is absolutely tight and cheap. I love it.

billmac, thanks for the kind words. My welds on the adapters will not be as pretty as before. That guy was/is an artist and I have some learnin' to do. They are strong though.

I am getting close here. Going to drop off seven kits tomorrow for powdercoat. still have not put pencil to paper to figure out the final price. That will be up very soon.

[Top Cat]

yea
I am getting close here. Going to drop off seven kits tomorrow for powdercoat. still have not put pencil to paper to figure out the final price. That will be up very soon.

Just make sure you get enough to make all this effort worth while. I know you want to under cut the rat bastard but your quality is worth what ever you feel a fair price.

[Idaho]

[quote="Idaho (High Plains Drifter)":tqk7st6d]yea
I am getting close here. Going to drop off seven kits tomorrow for powdercoat. still have not put pencil to paper to figure out the final price. That will be up very soon.

Just make sure you get enough to make all this effort worth while. I know you want to under cut the rat bastard but your quality is worth what ever you feel a fair price. [/quote:tqk7st6d]

Thanks Tim. There is a lot of expense in getting to this point. I just need to figure on re-cooping those dollars over a long period of time. Otherwise the first 20 or so of these will be $150 each. HA. Can't sell quality if the price is too high.

[macmac]

Bud got any weld doodleing pics? Can you drag the pool of molten steel yet, and not have porous welds?

Is this welding on a bench? Have you had hot slag in yer boots yet? http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

My wife laffs at me when I do the 'dance' hot watusii LOL

Tip: use the back of a hand NOT the palm to check for heat. You can burn the back of a hand and still work.

I wish I had a nickel for everytime I picked up a hunk of steel around 600 hundred degrees in my hand. It's the worst on a forge when i think I am in a hurry. Gloves are a sin as I see things. Man when you pick up hot steel in gloves the sweat turns to a scalding steam burn.

Do as i say not as I do http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

[Idaho]

You are tough Mac. I've worked for an electric utility for over 24 years now and they always stress safety and personal protective equipment. I wear leather gloves and an apron and have an electronic welding helmet. I'm looking for a leather welding jacket. High boots that are covered over by my jeans, no hot watusii for me. To move hot steel I keep a set of channel lock pliers on the table. Luckily these adapters are welded at the ends so there is plenty of cool steel to grab hold of to move them around in the middle.

I'm getting better at moving that puddle. Getting dialed in on wire speed and gas fow rates. No porous welds and I'm using thick enough tube steel that I don't have any issues with burning through. It seems to work better for me to push the puddle rather than pull it around. I need to adjust my torch because the nozzle sticks out about 1/4 inch beyond the end of the tip. I think I could get better results if the contact tip was either flush with or sticks out just beyond the nozzle. there is good gas flow rates so moving the contact tip out will still put the puddle inside the shield gas. I also need to improve the ground clamp. I grind off a clean spot on the welding table to clamp onto but still get popping every once in a while like I have a bad ground.

My machinist inspected my welds and declared them acceptable so that makes me feel good.

This has been quite a project to say the least. Gave me something to do this winter that's for sure.

[cactusjack]

My dad thought it was a good idea that I learned to weld. He always said "if you can weld, you can always make money." I worked at a Midas Muffler location for a couple of years, did a lot of oxy-acetylene welding which was the standard 30 years ago.

[ringadingh]

Good boots are important Bud, just like Mac Ive done a hot dance a few times. Usually its from not having them laced up and a molten piece of metal goes down inside the top.
another time I was doing a quick job in my sneakers and stepped on a molten lump, it burned through in a hurry and had me dancing.

[radco]

.

I also need to improve the ground clamp. I grind off a clean spot on the welding table to clamp onto but still get popping every once in a while like I have a bad ground.

My machinist inspected my welds and declared them acceptable so that makes me feel good.

This has been quite a project to say the least. Gave me something to do this winter that's for sure.

Bud in Gas Welding the popping from the molten metal was from rust,, I assume it is the same with Mig/Tig? Try cleaning the joints with a wire brush first to remove any rust see if that helps! Just my 1.5 cents on welding :) ,, Powder coating can ne done in your shed or basemnt(Note wife wont like it in house :) ) a used eletric oven and you can powder coat your own...Kits are fairily cheap. BUT if your getting a good price on coating now a few extra $$ and someone else doing the work is worth it LOL...
Rich

[redjay]

About 25 years ago I was wearing a pair of nylon coveralls while welding. The bottom of the pant leg caught fire from spatter. I reached down to put out the fire and the nylon stuck to my hand. My ankle never got burned but my hand sure did. Also over the years I have had heavy objects fall on my feet. Both times the objects fell on the laces area and not on the steel toe cap. I now always buy the welders safety boots with the plate over the laces even though I rarely weld these days.

[redjay]

Bud, try to get the ground as close to the piece being welded. Better still put the ground on the frame being welded. Also its better (for me) to push the molten puddle rather than pull it.
Also make sure the steel is clean before you start welding.
Mig welding does not take kindly to oil and paint.

Also you might want to think about taking a welding exam to get a welding ticket ? If one of the frames ever fails it might be a liability issue ?

[Idaho]

Great news!! The adapters will be powdercoated, green for this bunch, and ready by Tuesday. They will be $60 each plus shipping. Most of the time the average for the lower 48 will be about 15 to 20 bux to ship UPS ground. Shipping to Canada is a challenge. UPS is too expensive and the last two kits that I shipped there cost a whopping 30 bux. So there you have it. With shipping the cost will be $75 to $80 to the lower 48 and about $90 to Canada. I used to charge $85 to the US and $95 to Canada so I have been able to shave a few bucks off of the cost.

These kits are now made of heavier steel tube than they were before. The attachment point to the bike frame tabs are made milled steed blocks by Joe Norris (Chuckster) and are very nice with no sharp edges. Very nice.

[Idaho]

The tube steel that I'm using is brand new shiny with a light coat of oil. I assume that oil is rubbed off by the time I start to weld but maybe not. I'll use a rag to wipe everything down from now on.

I put the frame right next to the ground on the table and have ground off the table top to clean steel for better conductivity. I really think the ground clamp is part of the problem. I may try to get some copper plate and bolt it to the table for a better ground.

Thanks for the horror stories. I will try to learn from them.

Redjay, that is a great idea. I will look into it.

[macmac]

Yeah i don't get to stand or sit at a bench much, I tend to have to squat welding or lay on my back and weld over head. No Fun.

I have had hot slag enter a burn hole in and out a few times as the wrinkles are and then enter to get in a boot. I wear slip on boots so i can slip them off fast.

I wear cotton jeans for pants and did as a car tech too. That caused problems a few times me refusing the polyester unifoms. I have burned both hands peeling other techs out of their melting plastic unifoms more than once too.

My welding jacket is a coated fire resistant cotton. I never wore aprons, but then I don't get to stand up.

I own torches suitable to gas weld too. I got lots of practice doing that on MBenz cars which were supposed to be welded in the first place, and others that came by Greyhound Bus all cut up to fit the cargo bays on such busses. That was pre mig as Cj mentioned.

The last major gas welding project i got into was after having a new head pipe made up by a guy that got a brand new pipe bender. His mig welding skills were far from good.

Rather than fill his welds with my mig, I chose to gas weld over his welds.

Bud if you use gloves take extra care, as steam burns are really bad, and getting off gloves is hard to do fast enough. A steam burn will cover more area faster than a burn with out gloves.

Like I said I get into most of my troubles at the forge, which I haven't done in a while.

The steel will go black and I forget which parts I worked last. Red hot steel in low light is no problem I can see that stuff is still hot. The problem comes from making many of the same thing. An example is pot hooks, where I make around 10 of the same thing, that gets hot on both ends.

My pot hooks are traditional of course but mine are far lighter in weight than most, but can hold a 5 gallon cast iron pot filled with stew. Mine are designed to be carried in a pack for a primitive treck, and 3 of them won't weigh a pound combined, not even close.

These are all cutesy with dainty rolled eyes at the tips, in the reverse roll of the hook itself.

I make knives with that same idea closing the larger hook eye up some to be a grip for the last 2 fingers.

Pushing the puddle works good, no problems there. When I can use a steel bench, I will clean the ground clamp, the bench and a "C" clamp to clamp the part.

I will use a bllock of wood to steady my hand too. Might be a 4 inch long hunk of 2x4, I can rest my hand on, and slide the block with the heel of my hand with.

[ringadingh]

Bud if you ever ship to Canada, don't use UPS or any other courier service, they will tack on a $38.00 brokerage charge, plus 13% sales tax when it arrives at the door. Whereas USPS just arrives with no additional fees 99% of the time. Anytime I order from the states I make absolutely sure of the shipping method. If the vendor insists on UPS it usually not worth us buying it here because of the extra charges.

[Idaho]

Ya, Steve, that is what I found so far. But the last two kits that I shipped to Canada still cost me $30.

By the way, good news for you Canadians. You dollar is now worth more than ours. Last I looked it was 1.4444 cents more.

[ringadingh]

Ya, Steve, that is what I found so far. But the last two kits that I shipped to Canada still cost me $30.

By the way, good news for you Canadians. You dollar is now worth more than ours. Last I looked it was 1.4444 cents more.

Its about time our buck went up, I remember about 10-12 years ago when our dollar was only worth .65, that sure made going or ordering from the states expensive. On the other hand a lot of americans bought there ATV's bikes and snowmobiles up here and saved a ton of cash.

[redjay]

Even with the dollar at par or better motorcycles are still much cheaper in the U.S than Canada. Remember when a new Nomad was $13,000 in the U.S and $18,000 here (2007 ?).
Even now a fuel pump is $420 in the U.S and $700 here. WTF. Are you listening Kawasaki ????

[Idaho]

redjay, the problem my not be Kawasaki, it may be import duties.

[rickyboy]

redjay, the problem my not be Kawasaki, it may be import duties.

I guess because the product { in this case a fuel pump} is made "off shore" it's not covered under the FREE TRADE act. What a joke that is for Canadians.

I'm lucky to have a US address to ship to. But if you live close to th border you can always pic the item up at the crossing. But if I'm over for the weekend I don't pay duty coming across.

Oh and about the Canadian "loonie" being worth more Steve,.... it always has been IMO..... we just didn't "get it". It has always been kept lower for political reasons and for trade reasons between us and our U.S. brothers and sisters. .....again, IMO

[ringadingh]

Your right Rick, they keep saying its good for our exports. The thing is the fat cat that exports his products and is living high doesn't worry about the rest of the people here. Personally Id rather see them suffer, and us regular joes get a fair shake.

[glwilson]

Even with the dollar at par or better motorcycles are still much cheaper in the U.S than Canada. Remember when a new Nomad was $13,000 in the U.S and $18,000 here (2007 ?).
Even now a fuel pump is $420 in the U.S and $700 here. WTF. Are you listening Kawasaki ????

Ah Redjay... that would be your government... not Kawasaki. Speak to them about it.

[Cajunrider]

When I was welding for a living, I had to test on 6" Sch 80 and 2" Sch 40 every year to maintain my Shell Oil certifications. Both 6" welds were in 6G (45 degree) position and the 2" were also in the 6G position. One of the 2" was acetylene welded and the other was conventional stick rod. On big pipe jobs, we tested for each job on the size of pipe we were laying. Largest was 42". Took a few short arc (mig) tests on 6" and 2". Those were the easiest. Took one TIG test on 6" stainless and didn't make it. Tried to learn TIG on my own with no expert to coach me. My technique was a little off but I finally learned and went into operations in 1992. Haven't welded pipe since then.

[rickyboy]

"midge" is a pressure welder in the oil industry. He builds the sour gas plants etc. He has to test before every job I think. I think you get one shot at it and if you fail, you're not working there. I know there is little to no leeway in that industry. His welds are all ex-ray'd too. I think you can fail one of those before you're run off. I guess when you're building something that has the potential to blow up a small city area, you have to be good. It's treat to watch Brian weld. He's given me a few pointers for sure.

[macmac]

Mitch that is far past my meager skill sets. I don't tig either, but can watch it happen any time i want if I walk 80 feet.

[donoller]

I BOUGHT YOUR ADAPTER SEVERAL YEARS BACK IT WAS PAINTED BLUE SO I PAINTED IT RED BUT IT WORKS GREAT EVEN BEING RED HANG IN THERE THE OTHER GUY WILL GO AWAY.

[Idaho]

I BOUGHT YOUR ADAPTER SEVERAL YEARS BACK IT WAS PAINTED BLUE SO I PAINTED IT RED BUT IT WORKS GREAT EVEN BEING RED HANG IN THERE THE OTHER GUY WILL GO AWAY.

Ya, I know Don. I am going to post a few of these on Ebay but I have to get ahead first. Only have one boxed up and not claimed as of now. 9 more are going to powdercoat tomorrow afternoon.