Cam Chain tensioner extenders

[blackdogbrian]

Good Morning Folks,

A short while back I tackled the cam chain extensioner repair/service/mod(?) to my nomad. This was due in part to the encouragement of some of the folks on this forum (got to be careful, might start getting all sentimental and tearing up ;) )

Anywho, instead of always leaching info and advice, I thought I would try and share what I saw while doing the mod. I took a couple photos to augment the resources already available (ie gadget's site, the kawa service manual, and the comments from a number of folks like mac)

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae230/oil_rider/Cam%20Chain%20Extender/PA100027.jpg

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae230/oil_rider/Cam%20Chain%20Extender/PA100028.jpg
http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae230/oil_rider/Cam%20Chain%20Extender/PA100029.jpg

[blackdogbrian]

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae230/oil_rider/Cam%20Chain%20Extender/PA100030.jpg

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae230/oil_rider/Cam%20Chain%20Extender/PA100031.jpg

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae230/oil_rider/Cam%20Chain%20Extender/PA100032.jpg

[blackdogbrian]

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae230/oil_rider/Cam%20Chain%20Extender/PA100033.jpg

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae230/oil_rider/Cam%20Chain%20Extender/th_PA110036.jpg (http://s974.photobucket.com/albums/ae230/oil_rider/Cam%20Chain%20Extender/?action=view&current=PA110036.mp4)

[blackdogbrian]

and here is a link to the video I shot BEFORE.
This gives an idea of the sound I was hearing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBuo7mN1xv0

[Dave]

Black sure does show dirt.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. :)

[blowndodge]

That bike is Filthy!!!! http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

[cactusjack]

Two words: chrome polish! http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

[ringadingh]

Sure is dirty, but at least it will be quite now. ;)

[Cajunrider]

Thanks for posting the pics and video Brian. I'm sure some that were wondering are feeling more confident now. Bet you learned never to post pics of a dirty bike. http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

[ccmjr77]

I think I need to do this to my bike. I have similar sound. 2007 with 27K on it. I need to order the extenders. I don't know why I am afraid to tackle this project.

[blackdogbrian]

wow.... all the abuse for my dirty girl.....
She gets two good baths every year, in the spring and in the fall when she's being put away. Other then that there's no time to wash her -
I'm too busy riding!

[blackdogbrian]

..... Bet you learned never to post pics of a dirty bike. http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

or at least no more close ups..... she was worse in my sig photo, you just can't see the detail.

At the risk of hijacking my own thread.... I sometimes wonder how often everyone washes their bike. I was on a 5 day trip this summer and ended up sharing a room with a Wing rider. This fellow got up early every morning and searched for a car wash to wash the wing. If he couldn't get one he'd grab some towels and a bucket (or the trash bin) and was the bike every morning before we rode.....

[ccmjr77]

I would not worry about the dirt, it just shows that you ride.
I have had my bike since may 2007 and the only water to ever touch it is when I get caught in the rain. I only clean the bike with a spray cleaner and a towel.

[dogleg]

Is there any harm in doing this job before the chains start cutting into the spark plug tubes? I almost have 20K on my 08 and was considering putting in the extenders when the snow flies.

[cactusjack]

..... Bet you learned never to post pics of a dirty bike. http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

or at least no more close ups..... she was worse in my sig photo, you just can't see the detail.

At the risk of hijacking my own thread.... I sometimes wonder how often everyone washes their bike. I was on a 5 day trip this summer and ended up sharing a room with a Wing rider. This fellow got up early every morning and searched for a car wash to wash the wing. If he couldn't get one he'd grab some towels and a bucket (or the trash bin) and was the bike every morning before we rode.....

I only wash mine maybe once a year, it doesn't really get dirty, just dusty and we don't have a bunch of nasty bugs here like in other parts of the country. Usually after a road trip I give it a good bath, especially if I've been riding in rain. I keep it cleaned and polished all the time.

[Cajunrider]

Is there any harm in doing this job before the chains start cutting into the spark plug tubes? I almost have 20K on my 08 and was considering putting in the extenders when the snow flies.

It would be a good idea to pull the cap off of the rear cylinder tensioner to get an idea how much travel you have left. If your push rod is recessed over 1/4" you are OK to install the extenders. If the pushrod is flush or almost flush with the end of the assembly I would wait another few thousand miles. If they aren't quite ready you could possibly put too much pressure against the tensioner shoe resulting on undue chain stress. After pulling the cap to check travel, pull the entire assembly off and reset it according to the shop manual.

[caper]

Where do you get these chain extenders?? I don't know if I need them but it would be nice to have them on hand, Thanks

[Cajunrider]

Where do you get these chain extenders?? I don't know if I need them but it would be nice to have them on hand, Thanks

Chucksterscustoms.com

Joe (Chuckster131) is a KawaNOW member.

[dogleg]

So I pulled the extender assembly on the rear jug and here’s what I found:

It looks like the distance from fully retracted to fully extended is roughly .705 inch. When pulled, it was extended about .550 which only leaves about .155 left. I think it’s time to get some extenders on order. Thanks for the advice to check the travel.

Just for reference, my 08 has 19415 on the odometer.

[Cajunrider]

Good idea to order them Dave. My '07 had 26,000 on the dial when I installed my extenders. I had very little travel left.

[deacon]

How many extra miles do the tensionors add?

[chuckster131]

How many extra miles do the tensionors add?

Once the extenders are installed, you will be good to go. I haven't heard of anyone having any issues beyond that.

Kawasaki just didn't bank the curve on having enough travel to chain stretch in their tensioners.

[dogleg]

I just ordered my extenders tonight and 5 minutes later I get a shipping confirmation and a tracking number. I should have them in no time.

Chuckster, you are the poster child for customer service!

[chuckster131]

Well you caught me at the right time as I'm sitting here doing my office work, now that the day is over.... There is a good chance you will have them by Saturday.

Thanks again

[nomadbehappy]

Thanks for the video, it is nice to know what it sounds like when it happens. I will check mine this winter. I just got my bike a year ago and it only had 3,000 kms on it so I should have lots of time, but I think I will order a set just to have on hand for when that inevitable day comes.

[MAS Tequila]

Well he's definitely the poster child for something http://s2.images.proboards.com/cool.gif

MT

[ringadingh]

I usually give it a good wash every few days, although the last few weeks Ive neglected it because of a rainey spell.
When Im on the road on a trip I usually wash it in the motel parking lot evry morning most times.

[ringadingh]

Where do you get these chain extenders?? I don't know if I need them but it would be nice to have them on hand, Thanks

In Canada the extenders are a dealer item, go to the tech boards here, and you will find the p/n you need.

[ringadingh]

Is there any harm in doing this job before the chains start cutting into the spark plug tubes? I almost have 20K on my 08 and was considering putting in the extenders when the snow flies.

I think 20k is probably too soon to add them, I got over 50k before they where required. If the extenders are not out of travel you may not fit them back in with the extensions on.
Go to Gadgets sight and it is well explained there how to measure how much travel is left or not.
You don't gain anything by adding them way ahead of time.

[mikeyger]

I ordered my extenders saturday night and recived my in the mail today. I live in tennessee. Chucksters pretty fast don;t ya think Going to put them in tommorow. mikyger

[jandreu]

Just a thought...could you check to see if you need extenders by pulling the spark plug tunnels? If the chain is hitting it will leave a mark. Would this be any easier?

Sorry to say but I wash my Nomad at least every two weeks and sometimes every week depending on how much riding I do and the wind. Wind you ask...yes wind. Living on an island we have normally high trade winds, combine that with ocean surf and it equals Salt Spray, heavy sticky salt on everything. Dirt may not harm anything but salt will rust and anodize everything if you don't get it off. Plus I'm just anal about having a clean bike, gives me a chance to check it over and do any maintenance required. I guess this habit formed when I bought my HD back in '94! http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

[Cajunrider]

Pulling the spark plug tunnels will tell you if the chains are hitting them or not but won't give you any idea of when they will if you are nearly or out of travel and don't know it. The rear assembly is easy to check the travel and it will give you a good idea of where you are for both tensioners. My #1 was just a couple of clicks less than the #2. If you've removed the intake crossover tube, the #1 is also easy to check. If you have over 20,000 miles on the dial, it's a good idea to have the extenders on hand.

[ringadingh]

I checked my cam chains the last year or so by looking at the spark plug tubes, I knew I was out of travel but the cam chains were not rubbing also. Finally I noticed a small nick in one of the tubes, this took about a year to happen from when they ran out of travel. Mind you if your real gentle on your takeoffs and gearing down, you will get a lot more mileage out of the cam chains rather than hard fast starts and stops.

[ballast]

How about an "After" video so we can hear the difference.

[blackdogbrian]

Yeah, I'll have to put up an after video.
I actually did on immediately after, and there were still issues - so I was concerned I hadn't found the source of my troubles.
But, after I took the bike for a ride it seemed to have worked it out (as I assume the tensioners adjusted to take in the slack).

[blackdogbrian]

but.....I still haven't washed it.
So, If I do an after video......someone has to volunteer to come and wash her first!

http://s2.images.proboards.com/tongue.gif

[dogleg]

Is there any harm in doing this job before the chains start cutting into the spark plug tubes? I almost have 20K on my 08 and was considering putting in the extenders when the snow flies.

I think 20k is probably too soon to add them, I got over 50k before they where required. If the extenders are not out of travel you may not fit them back in with the extensions on.
Go to Gadgets sight and it is well explained there how to measure how much travel is left or not.
You don't gain anything by adding them way ahead of time.

I saw that Gadget says that if the rod is above or flush with the threaded end, then there is travel left. However, I was recessed about .195 inch. I was actually surprised too in the amount of stretch that had occurred with only 20K. I just didn’t want to wait till all the travel is gone.

[recumbentbob]

Extender Question :

After installing the extenders will you ever run out of travel again and have to replace the cam chains ?

[ringadingh]

Extender Question :

After installing the extenders will you ever run out of travel again and have to replace the cam chains ?
I don't know if anyone has gone that far, but if the chains start rubbing on the spark plug tubes with the extenders on you will have no choice but to replace the cam chains. Im sure that would be a whole pile of miles though, probably more than most of us will ever put on the bike. By that time the motor would be ready for a whole lot more than just the chains also.

[mikeyger]

I got my extenders in today.The front one was a little tight but I got it. I have 39000 miles and they were not making any noise but when I took them out I was out of travel.Thanks to every one for thier advice!! Have a good day!

[macmac]

Is there any harm in doing this job before the chains start cutting into the spark plug tubes? I almost have 20K on my 08 and was considering putting in the extenders when the snow flies.

We have the same miles about. And No there is no harm doing these before they do any damage. In fact you want to do them before there is any other damage.

However you might wait and ride a little longer if you can. i wouldn't bother to look really untill 25,000 miles.

I did Flavors bike and he has 2 and 3 teeth left, which IMO is just about right. No damage to anything and just about all the stretch has taken place.

These chains can only stretch so far, and it might be a wise idea to let them. If there is a next time a wiser idea would be break it all down and install new chains, rings and maybe do a valve job. Certainly pull the valves and check the guides, and refresh the seats and faces on all the valves.

In my case the timing is poor. I could be in mid to late season next summer when that time comes and I hate working on my bike in the season. I like to get it all in late fall or early spring, so ridin time isn't messed up with repairs.

But then these don't take a long time, if that's all that is done.

[skiman]

Maybe some 10:1 pistons and a cam, port match the intake and polish the runners,,

http://www.orientexpress.com/Kawasaki/Cruiser/VN+1500+Vulcan/Pistons/

[oldbikers]

I had street rods for many years and washing and waxing was just about all I did so when I sold my street rod and bought a bike I decided to do it a little different so now I ride as much as I can and wash it when I have to. As far as the extenders go I had 42000 on mine and still had 1 click left when I changed mine.

[macmac]

skiman, I don't know if I would personally change to hi comp pistions, but a cam would be an idea. More comp pistons would mean at least mid range octane even with a fuel modual, but a cam wouldn't.

Is there cams? What do you mean by polish runners? I have never heard the term runners before. Probably a local word for something else.

[skiman]

http://www.bing.com/search?q=intake+runners&form=MSNH14&qs=AS

There's few things out for the 1500's but sadly we're stuck with stock
Plus the cost is crazy high over 400 for cams with exchange over 300 for pistons

[redjay]

I am thinking runners means the inlet port area of the heads ?

[blowndodge]

"runners" are essentially the intake manifold. The section the fuel flows before intering the head....

long intake manifolds increase torque and short manifolds increase the rpm where max torque is produced.

[skiman]

In short I would say a good porting shop that does HD stuff (they'll let you in the place since your money is green too) would know how to port our heads for the rpm range we need.

I found this on runners, short for grunt and long for high rpm like the old tunnel rams that sat 2 feet high on a drag car.

INTAKE RUNNERS

As is the case with the primary exhaust pipes, the diameter and length of the intake manifold runners influence the power curve of the engine. The intake runner diameter influences the point at which peak power is reached while the intake runner length will influence the amount of power available at high and low RPM.

A larger diameter intake runner will result in improved engine breathing at high RPM and will take peak engine power to a higher RPM but will have little low RPM power. This may be good for a modified race car or a drag car, but will not be good for a turbocharged car with a large turbocharger. For a good responsive modified street car or a rally car you would want an intake manifold runner diameter that is approximately 80% the size of the intake valve diameter on a two-valve cylinder, or the same size as the intake valve diameter on a four-valve cylinder. For a high performance modified race car or a drag race car you would want an intake manifold runner diameter that is approximately 90% the size of the intake valve diameter on a two-valve cylinder, or approximately 110% the size of the intake valve diameter on a four-valve cylinder.

In terms of intake manifold runner length, a longer intake runner produces better power at high RPM, while a shorter intake runner produces better power at low PRM. Generally, an intake manifold runner that is in the region of 300-400 mm long will sustain power at high RPM but little power at low RPM while an intake manifold runner that is in the region of 200-300 mm long will start building power from low RPM but will run out of power soon after peak power is reached. But note that the intake port on the cylinder head forms part of the intake runner. Thus the intake runner length is measured from the intake valve seat to the intake runner bell mouth, and not from the end of the intake manifold.

[skiman]

This guy went crazy on a 1500 read about the engine mods he did

http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/tech/custom_kawasaki_vulcan_1500/index.html

[macmac]

The term is never ever called runner in New England. We have Intake manifold, and high rise manifold, unless it is updraft or side draft.

I get the idea, but never heard the term, which must be a Cali word http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

Just leave it to them guys from Cal, they tawk like engrish is their own language...

With the carb/ throttle body/ off, 'we' could make sure everything lines up, that no gaskets create a lump, air dams, and that the same goes at the heads. Then 'we' could polish and port, any imprecfections out, but I bet that wouldn't get 0.2% more power on a Nomad.

Maybe after cams.

Somewhere there will be a limit on the bevel gear, or the final drive, and I am sure I don't want to know where that limit is. Lots and lots of broken sharp and pretty hot metal sticking out of expensive cases don't really excite me, unless someone else is footing the bill.

Someone who knows he is pushing the edge, and doesn't care about 100,000 dollars plus or minus 100,000.

If you guys can command that kinda dough, I sure can help in blowing things up! http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

[skiman]

So Mac, if you need a intake manifold runner control valve for a Ford in New England what do they ask for ? http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

[macmac]

I dunno...... What does that do? Like i said i never heard the term before. Maybe there is a few things I am not getting.

The first link showed intake manifolds. I understand what a intake manifoild is. I don't own any engines so far, that had runners, or controll valves for runners.

I went here due to the question, and there is pages of these, but I haven't looked them up to see what they do.
http://www.thefind.com/cars/info-intake-manifold-runner-control-valve

I am not going to guess at what they might do, but they resemble things I have seen in the past, but are not that item.

off to find out what these do.

[skiman]

The valve controls butter flys in the intake runners so the engine thinks they are short during low rpm operation and longer during high rpm operation.
I think the v2k has something along that line on it's intake system

[macmac]

Oh I found them and what they do. These are pricey little devils, that open and close intake air to ports with in the intake manifild and it seems Ford (found on road dead) is very proud of them. These work off engine vacuum of which there is very little to none of at high rpm. Figures just leave it to Ford.

I see BMW uses them too, no doubt where Ford got them from in the first place. If it were not for emissions and the nice folks at the EPA trying to kill cars in the first place no one would have needed these in the first place.

If one breaks the best thing to do is not get the vehical inspected and so save money since the cars with them broken still seem to run just fine.

I sort of maintain people who buy new cars are buying some punk kid engineers experiments, a punk engineer who can run CAD, but never got a drop of oil under a fingernail once.

More or less that leaves you with a cage worth 10 G's and it has 30 G's worth of crappola on it for the EPA.

The EPA is very good at fixing non-existant problems too.

On the other hand I am pretty proud of the fact I have never owned any cars with ODB 1 or II computors, but I got a 4 bolt main chevy 350 cui engine with 2 dip sticks http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

That leaves most people scratchin' their heads, more so when I ask both are checked.

I sort of find the fact that bouncing air around inside the intake manifold is a sort of foolish idea, when it really doesn't get MORE air. It is as foolish as making black plastic intake manifolds and or that silly time consuming engine cover, that shows when the hood is popped and all it does is hide any sign of any engine or parts in the first place.

Maybe the new age techs like that, as they get paid to remove and replace that silly non-sence cover, which they can do while a computer plugs away, telling them what to do next.

Now i know what it is, I can say it reminded me of a EGR valve by pure looks. That was another hunk of junk, that cooks itself full of mung.

A second take on the looks was it was a Bosche part that runs a little motor to increase metered air around the throttle plate flapping a shutter about a zillion times a second, something like a ISC on a Nomad but faster, and doing about the same thing.

What this device as a controll valve really does is act like a tuned exhaust and uses back pressure to feed the engine atomized fuel.

Why didn't you just say so in the first place? http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

And now i wouild like a chocolate frappe' with this order.

[skiman]

Sometimes I just like to stare under the hood of my 68 chevelle

[skiman]

interesting


http://www.timtaylor.net/CCT/

[blackdogbrian]

and here I thought this was going to be a reference to Home Improvements and Tim the Tool Man Taylor....

[MAS Tequila]

My 93 SHO had two runners for each cylinder, long and short.

http://shosource.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=61_43_53

Depending on the need it would switch to make the appropriate amount of get up and go.

They have always been intake runners in the south.

MT

[snarleybill08]

about intake and exaust ports and intake manifolds. i have done alot of head porting and race valve jobs over the years. heres the scoop. we will just cover street jobs here since i don't think anyone will be racing there nad. the biggest gain for the street in porting, is basically cleaning up the rough spots like casting marks and smoothing sharp bends in the port. polishing is for all out race engines and supercharged engines where that last bit of horse power it needed at high rpms. the inside radius on a port is usually the most critical area that needs attention. gasses like to follow a smooth curve without a sharp bend. a rough port surface on the intake is best for low rpm performance because the surface turbulence will help to keep the fuel to mix with the air and stay in suspension. the intake manifold size should be the same size as the opening on the port and be a close to perfect match in shape. the biggest gain you can make to the head is a multi angle valve job on the intake and exaust. this is a very restrictive area and flow can be greatly enhanced by creating a nice curve for the intake and exaust gasses to follow when the valve is opening. a good street porting job on a nomad with no other changes would probably net at most 1 or 2 hp. you would'nt even feel the difference. i port all my heads when i have them off my bikes just to know i have the best efficiency in flow available.

[Loafer]

about intake and exaust ports and intake manifolds. i have done alot of head porting and race valve jobs over the years. heres the scoop. we will just cover street jobs here since i don't think anyone will be racing there nad. the biggest gain for the street in porting, is basically cleaning up the rough spots like casting marks and smoothing sharp bends in the port. polishing is for all out race engines and supercharged engines where that last bit of horse power it needed at high rpms. the inside radius on a port is usually the most critical area that needs attention. gasses like to follow a smooth curve without a sharp bend. a rough port surface on the intake is best for low rpm performance because the surface turbulence will help to keep the fuel to mix with the air and stay in suspension. the intake manifold size should be the same size as the opening on the port and be a close to perfect match in shape. the biggest gain you can make to the head is a multi angle valve job on the intake and exaust. this is a very restrictive area and flow can be greatly enhanced by creating a nice curve for the intake and exaust gasses to follow when the valve is opening. a good street porting job on a nomad with no other changes would probably net at most 1 or 2 hp. you would'nt even feel the difference. i port all my heads when i have them off my bikes just to know i have the best efficiency in flow available.

I had been told this 8-9 years ago. Thanks for the reminder.

[macmac]

I suppose every one of you know what a frappe' is? I asked for one in Pa and was handed a coke.

I have no idea what a intake runner is, or didn't till yesterday. Must be something newer than 1985.

My Nomad doesn't have one it has a intake manifold and no runner controll valve either, neither does my 81 850, or my 83 chevy truck, or my 85 volvo car, not even my 86 dodge van, or the land lords Toyota pick up, or his Dodge 1 ton.

No mahogany Chriscraft made in the 50's, and I just plain never heard of it, which means i don't bloomin well need it and you guys are just showin' off.

No Vauxhall had one, no Anglia had one, no Jensen Heally thought to have one, no Triumph Stag, No Sterling. Evidently no one really needs one.

That tim tailor link is a mechanical adjuster, and i would avoid it unless you really like guessing about chain tensions.

My 850 has a rig like that where every so many miles you loosen the side lock bolt and hear it click, then lock it down.

Now a mechanicall tensioner can work, but not if a guy is a little heavy on the wrist. The idea is to take up slack, and not drive the tensioner right thru the bloomin chain.

9 out of 10 guys here would surely over tighten something like that.

Probably 9 out 10 guys here with K&N air filters keep the air filters too clean too. The K&N filters use dirt to filter air. ........ really.

[ringadingh]

about intake and exaust ports and intake manifolds. i have done alot of head porting and race valve jobs over the years. heres the scoop. we will just cover street jobs here since i don't think anyone will be racing there nad. the biggest gain for the street in porting, is basically cleaning up the rough spots like casting marks and smoothing sharp bends in the port. polishing is for all out race engines and supercharged engines where that last bit of horse power it needed at high rpms. the inside radius on a port is usually the most critical area that needs attention. gasses like to follow a smooth curve without a sharp bend. a rough port surface on the intake is best for low rpm performance because the surface turbulence will help to keep the fuel to mix with the air and stay in suspension. the intake manifold size should be the same size as the opening on the port and be a close to perfect match in shape. the biggest gain you can make to the head is a multi angle valve job on the intake and exaust. this is a very restrictive area and flow can be greatly enhanced by creating a nice curve for the intake and exaust gasses to follow when the valve is opening. a good street porting job on a nomad with no other changes would probably net at most 1 or 2 hp. you would'nt even feel the difference. i port all my heads when i have them off my bikes just to know i have the best efficiency in flow available.
I used to do the same to my engines when I built them, If I ever do have the Nomad apart Id do exactly what you mentioned about smoothing the runners and matching the intake to the head, as well as the valve job. Im not sure I'll ever have the motor apart to thatstage though, they seem to run forever as they are.

[skiman]

True Mac
In fact K&N says 25000 miles if used off road in dusty conditions
On road 50,000 miles for a stock replacement type and 100,000 for a cone type for inspection
Only clean it when part of the wire mesh is covered with dirt if all the mesh is showing no matter how dirty it's good to go.

Frappe goes back at least to the Napoleon era and was quite disgusting way of striking fear into the enemy.
how it became the name of a drink or many kinds of drinks is beyond me.

[snarleybill08]

intake runners have been around since the the invent of the first single carb to multi cyl engines were designed probably in the early 1900's. they are what the intake passages in intake manifolds are called. alot of design and runner length variations have been tried over the years. they even use different runner lengths and internal sizes on the same engine to tune cylinders in the same engine for hp., and torque at different rpms to broaden the power band. edelbrock has been doing this for years with their torquer series manifolds. they even used different length injection stacks on the same engine to get a wider powerband. yamaha uses a computor controlled servo to add and remove length to the injector stacks on the R-1 to broaden the power band. it is very effective and can be felt when the change takes place. i would also not recommend the mechanical chain adjusters. the hyvo timing chain wears so fast that it may be loose and you would'nt know it. hydraulic is great for low rpm stock motors.

[Loafer]

Frappe goes back at least to the Napoleon era and was quite disgusting way of striking fear into the enemy.
how it became the name of a drink or many kinds of drinks is beyond me.


I thought that the army of Napoleon, didn't want to appear like pu***es. So when they ordered their cold coffee with a head on it, they would say," Hit me ". "m'a frappe'" ;)

[macmac]

So say, a 1964 VW Bug has intake runners? If i built one engine of that type, I built 1,000 literally. I still have nightmares about them and all the part numbers, and yet I have never once heard this term.

[Loafer]

So say, a 1964 VW Bug has intake runners? If i built one engine of that type, I built 1,000 literally. I still have nightmares about them and all the part numbers, and yet I have never once heard this term.

Mac, I'm pretty sure it was a regional thing, similar to: milk shakes/frappe' or creme/soft serve. As we have become a homogenized country, some terms have gone by the wayside and others have survived. It used to be fun going someplace and either getting the wrong item or having to tell a waitress how to make it.

[MAS Tequila]

Ok Mac, you know that an intake manifold has different parts, base plate, plenum, water jackets, and yes runners. The runner is merely the passage which the fuel air mix travels through from the plenum to the port.

It may be a geographical thing like pop and soda.

MT

[macmac]

Yeah I know the parts, but never heard that term like I said. I have ported intakes and polished them too, and all this time I never heard that term. I wish I did cuz i could have charged more money http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif
Hi yallyall want these grits out the runners?

First time I was asked if I wanted grits in the morning i said I'll take 2 sugars in my coffee, and make it black.

Now I have no idea if that place even made coffee cuz I got my butt kicked instead.

In the local I ordered up chicken fried cheeze burger, since regular cheese burger wasn't on the menu, That kicked my butt too, but from the inside. I will never even eat any place that has that on a menu. Some things just ain't fit for yankee's to eat. ::)

[MAS Tequila]

Then maybe it's time to stop being a yankee.

You could always be northern by birth but southern by choice.

You come down for the national rally and I'll introduce you to livermush. You can't get any better than that.

And for the record I really enjoy grits. (Girls Raised In The South)

MT

[snarleybill08]

Yeah I know the parts, but never heard that term like I said. I have ported intakes and polished them too, and all this time I never heard that term. I wish I did cuz i could have charged more money http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif
Hi yallyall want these grits out the runners?

First time I was asked if I wanted grits in the morning i said I'll take 2 sugars in my coffee, and make it black.

Now I have no idea if that place even made coffee cuz I got my butt kicked instead.

In the local I ordered up chicken fried cheeze burger, since regular cheese burger wasn't on the menu, That kicked my butt too, but from the inside. I will never even eat any place that has that on a menu. Some things just ain't fit for yankee's to eat. ::) grits sound good maybe i'll have some this morning. mac, some folks also call those runners intake passages. i guess the race groups are the ones that standardized the word runners. because they became an important part of engine tuning. i guess they started messing with intake and exaust tuning in a primitive way back before i was born. it was an important factor on alot of the old indy engines even before the offy days. it did'nt really get technical till they invented the dyno and then in recent times the flow bench. now the computer era has really advanced engine tuning. some of the sport bikes are using variable exaust and intake length tuning while your riding. whats amazing to me is that with all this ultra advanced tecnoligy, they still can't top the basic reciprocating engine design that was derived in the late 1800's. i've been trying to reinvent the intake and exaust valve for years and because it is so archaic in design. i just can't seem to come up with a better mousetrap. honda has tried some far out things like the oval piston engine, i think ring flutter may have put the screws to that. it was an awesome idea for advanced volumetric efficiency. i kind of like the good old piston engine. turbines just don't have personality.

[upside22]

Yeah I know the parts, but never heard that term like I said. I have ported intakes and polished them too, and all this time I never heard that term. I wish I did cuz i could have charged more money http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif
Hi yallyall want these grits out the runners?


My father was a mechanic his whole life and I grew up working on engines. I've never heard the term here either. Not from anyone. Not on car engines, not on tractor engines, and not on truck engines.

My dad did a lot ofwork on tractors back in the early 70's when tractor pulling was just taking off around here, and I'm talking about the old style tractor pulls where the farmers would just bring in the tractor direct from the field. The old man even bought his own PTO-driven dynamometer measure his work.

On a non-pressurized system (i.e. no turbocharger and no supercharger) he found out what someone else pointed out on here. Porting and polishing typically gives a little boost. Doing a detailed valve job provides a much bigger boost. On a non-pressurized system the system can suck in just so much air while the piston is on the downstroke. Assuming the intake is full of air the limiting feature is the flow around the intake valve into the cylinder.

Now I realize that the engine on an old IH 560 is a lot different than the two-lunger in the Nomad but my guess is that the exact same thing applies.

[macmac]

Yeah back when bootleggin was the thing to do, exhausts were moddified then. Some of those cars ran straight pipes and had a cable operated flat washer installed to turn closed on a whim.

For lower rpm, the washer was closed, for high rpm that washer was open.

The next generation was a Y pipe casting, that was installed in the head pipe. It contained a valve like a carb butterfly. One way sent exhaust down the more or less stock system the other way let the exhaust out right there.

This isn't new, what's new is the ways these ideas are controlled.

These runners are exactly new to me either, but to me it is just the inside of the intake manifold. Sharp racing in Ct kknew all bout this in the late 60's i think it was, when they were getting pretty fancy with 4 banger in line engines that displaced just 1,598 cc's

Sound familar? Dan Sharp was getting some 400 ponies of that size engine. The cage these engines fit was a Datsun Spl 311.

That cage was a sort of clone of many, Partly MGB, Partly Triumph in shape and in parts. I had a few of those cages, and on one blew the tranny. Finding anew Datsun counter gear shaft was like findin chicken teeth. Basicly unobtainium, untill I was settin' about twiddlin' that shaft in my hands starring at th phone, a ancient artical of communication, which at one time i was able to use.

Suddenly I knew what I was looking at, and what i was looking at was the counter shaft to a MGA. That afternoon I had a new countershaft in my hands.

For at least that long people who raced chain saw, which I admitt is a strange machine to want to race, found tuning exhausts on them made them really go. Since then ways to extend the 'runners' have been developed inside the engine, to take the heat, which expands cold air to assist in acceleration of the bottle cap called pistons in saws.

I have spent a little time porting intakes on the inside myself. In time you can learn the 'feel' for intakes like Jensen Healy which in my day was a English 6 banger in line with a wild intake manifoild turning a near circle. One one end there were 3 Su type 4 carbs with 1 and 3/4 inch bores, and on the other end there was a pretty big cast iron cly head.

There were 2 ways to know of the lumps and bumps were gone and the intake was clean,and that was x rays, or 'feel'.

Back in the day for doing that we had a twisted wire madrell with ball shapes stones mounted on it. Many many stones, and these are still used to day for cylinder hones. Of course the intake sets were far smaller in diameter.

I am still amazed at times to find old parts from cars like MGA on newer cars.

So far in life I have only owned on Ford car of any kind. It was a 90's something escort. I needed that car to by a little time for doing a valve job on a Saab 900 of mine.

It was for my wife, and so I bought it because it felt good on the road. It was very used too, which ment I had to really get into it and check it out. One problem was it was August and that cage has winter tires with studs which are illegal in summer here. But the shock came when I saw that car had brake drums. I hadn't seen a brake drum on a car in 30 years.

Then I looked closer at the brake drums and they said Lucas! I said uh oh. I knew these were new old stock and must have been by the millions for Ford to have installed them on escorts since originally these came off MGA to.

You sawthun boys ain't got nuthin; on me. You just go right ahead and enjoy yer grits. I got pan cakes and with real maple syrup http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

About all you got I envey is 60 cal flint lock rifles made by Hershal House.

Livermush simply sounds disgusting.... In that case I think I will just settle on Maine Lobster.

[snarleybill08]

mac, you is cool. you brought back some old memories. around here they butchered alot of the healeys with small block chevies. the old t-birds (55,56,57) got superduty 421 pontiacs. them was the days. i passed my driver test in a 57 mga. 75 was passing and the guy felt sorry for me and gave me a 76. i think he never wanted to see me again. lol

[macmac]

Cool thing on the MGA was it was built as a righjt saide steering car, and was sort of crudly swapped over to left side steering. The throttle linkage was simply added to right over to left for the pedal.

http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif Which ment the passanger could step on the gas http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif I had a lot of fun with a few customers that had these cars.

The car you are tawkin is either or the B100 or 3000 mdls. Not many jensen healys were imported.

Another old favorite of mine is the XK 140 road car, a jag from the 40's older than me, but i worked on some, and of some got use of 1 in Daytona Bch on any Sundays of my choosing.

Needless to say I never drove that car on any bch ever.

I got lots and lots of Su crabs under my belt. I was trained by a guy that served as a real Engish Apprintice in the full and whole meaning of the word Apprintace.

I still have whitworth tooling and brit std. The whitworth is for fittings like pipe thread, the brit Std is wrenches for cars. These are fun too, since a 1/2 inch wrench is ment to fit as bolt with the shank of 1/2 inch not the cap.

These come in handy on rusted bolts and nuts when SAE and MM don't work, I get that last chance of something might still sort of fit.

I miss fire wall controlls too, like start buttons that crank the engine, polished plates that hold spare spark plugs, little things now long gone.

No doubt one day the old hit n' miss engines will return all computerized, and somebody will be calling the idea All New.

This runner thing with 2 intake passages to the same cly isn't close to new. maratime steam engines used that to bounce steam back a forth to supercharge that style engine in around 1880, one side was a larger diameter than the other side intake to feed the same piston.

Another thing that is old, is to run a engine with 2 different sized pistons, where one is feet bigger than the smaller.

[redjay]

I guess I am lucky, no signs of needing extenders yet at 59,000 kms. I guess I should take a look in the Spring. Also no clutch issues yet.

[macmac]

Redjay, there is no signs till you hear the chain cutting the sparkplug tubes, and if you don't or can't hear it, then you get some pretty silver color oil.

So far as I know you can buy factory extenders in Canada where as we can't. I have no idea why that is.

[mikeyger]

Redjay Mine were not making any noise either but I looked at them like the gadgets page said and measured them and the were about 5 -16 in so I changed them and the were streched all the way out I did not think they were making any noise it just sounded like a v-twin motor but now it onlly makes the air noises from the carb the nomad makes engine is very quite now and glad I went on and replace them 30 dollars!!

[snarleybill08]

my first tour of duty in the navy was an old liberty hull ship. it had a three cyl. engine. 5' bore, 4' bore, and 3' bore. the steam to the small cyl. was superheated. by the time it got down to the 5 foot cyl. it was running on a vacuum from the main condenser. it was direct drive to the prop. shaft. i darn near lived in the engineroom working on that thing. those were 3000 healeys. the mga was a miserable car. 2 batteries, worthless heater. sidecurtains you could'nt see out of,etc. the su carbs were one of the first constant velocity designs around. honda then designed one and put a pair on the 66 450 honda. later they eliminated the pistons on the slide and went to diaphrams on the 350 honda. alot of harley sportsters were running su's. i had one on one of my strokers. i also had a delorto with a megaphone on a stroker.

[macmac]

I would suppose on a Liberty Ship there could be worse placers to live than a engine room. Like up on the mast head lookin fer whales http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif Might be a little noisey down in that engine room, but it would be nice and warm.

Yeah the MGA and many others had (2) 6 volt batterys to make 12. Seems to me it was that one that was a little tired, over all a clean MGA wasn't too bad, some what light in power, but it wasn't about power was it?

As you mentioned Honda, at first I was thinking the car they made with a bike engine in it as stock. I knew of just one and don't recall it well.

I have never heard the word delorto. No clue what that is. Seems like it much be a bike probably from Italy.

[blowndodge]

My Triumph TR6 (1972) had duel Delorto carbs.

[macmac]

Looked them up, I have worked on those but they all said webber. I saw them mostly on BMW cars. My brain is stuck, and can't say which BMW, by the model number.

Slant 4 apx 1,600 cc's, rockers have etcentric rollers to adjust valves, on a single over head cam. If i recall correctly this was one of the first all alloy engine BMW used.

BD were these stock on the Tr or did you swap them to these? That Tr6 was the last of the English sports cars as i see things. After that, they made that wedge looking thing, which skips my alledged brain too.

I think the Tr6 came with 2 strombergs as stock, but maybe there was this as an option.

[redjay]

I checked mine today. The rear one is fully extended at 59,000 kms.

[skiman]

Redjay, there is no signs till you hear the chain cutting the sparkplug tubes, and if you don't or can't hear it, then you get some pretty silver color oil.

So far as I know you can buy factory extenders in Canada where as we can't. I have no idea why that is.

Mac
I see this is old post but I'll say it's the EPA since the chain has stretched once you install the extenders the cam timing changes the valves now close later not sure how many degrees but judging how loose my chain was I'd say a couple at least