On Locking the Rear Brake

I just read an interesting book on controlling heavy motorcycles. The most interesting point the author made was what happens when you lock the rear wheel of a motorcycle and you then release the brake to stop the skidding. He said the rear of the motorcycle will swing side to side because of the drag when locked, and when you release the brake the rear wheel will continue in the direction it was heading in when released ,which will put the motorcycle down. If the rear wheel happens to be aligned with the front then you probably won't go down.

Jerry Paladino the motor cop says the same thing in his video without explaining the swinging effect on the locked rear wheel. Both Jerry and the author of this book say if you lock the front wheel to release the brake immediately but if you lock the rear wheel to keep it locked until you come to a stop. I locked my rear wheel in a downshift recently and felt the rear swing and grabbed the clutch right away, so of course this can't be a hundred percent rule. The author said it depended on the angle of the rear wheel upon release of the brake. So I must have luckily been in a fairly straight position when I grabbed the clutch and stopped the skidding. I stupidly thought I was in neutral but I was in first and let go of the clutch lever. I won't pull that trick again.

I just thought this was an interesting little tidbit that I would pass along for your consideration. I won't mention the name of the book because it was printed in China and I don't want to help it's sales. I didn't know it was printed in China when I bought it.

Tom

[moloprintz]

I’ve locked my rear wheel a couple of times.
Both times the rear end wiggled but not to the point that I felt in iminent danger.
In both cases I added front break and clutch.
Adding the front brake gave me enough stopping power that I felt comfortable enough to ease pressure on the rear brake.
Once I had proper balance in the brakes all went well.
At no point did I feel I was near going down.
However this confidence may be stupidity caused by a lack of experience.

One thing I have noticed that allarmed me at first.
I have a ‘cramp buster’ or ‘throttle boss’ or whatever they are called.
A plastic paddle held on to the throttle with velcro.
Works great but in a situation where I need to use the front break hard and quick it can get in the way.
Squeeze the brake lever hard and the throttle opens.
I usually grab brake and clutch at the same time.

Mike

[Cajunrider]

I've locked the rear wheel for a malfunctioning traffic light that went from green to red. No normal caution in between. The bike skidded straight. Don't know if the car tire held it straight because I never skidded either of the two motorcycle tires I ran previous to the CT. I've read cautions about locking the rear wheel and the bike going into a slide. The riders panicked while the back wheel was coming around and released the back brake. The rear tire suddenly regained traction and whipped around to straighten out causing the riders to high side off of the bike. They stated that it's better to completely lose control and low side off of the bike when it lays down rather than a high side which normally seriously injures or kills a rider when the bike slides or runs over them. Do all you can to straighten the bike up with the rear wheel locked before releasing the rear brake. It makes alot of sense but I'm sure that adrenalin kicks in before skill with most riders who lack whole lot of experience. I hope I'm never forced to make that conscious decision. In the heat of the moment, I'm not sure what I would do.

[Top Cat]

I pulled a dumb stunt in front of Cindy this year that caused her to lockup the rear wheel. I heard the tire skiding and looked in my mirror and saw smoke coming from her rear tire.
She said she held the rear brake and applied front brake. When the bike started to go to the side she let off the rear before it got out of line. She still layed down 15 feet of rubber in an almost straight line.
When we got stopped the smoke was coming out of her helmet http://s2.images.proboards.com/shocked.gif she was a little pissed at me.
We are both glad she took and passed the Motorcycle Safty Course. ;)

[AlabamaNomadRider]

I have had two experiences with having to lock the rear brake. Once coming home from work at 3 AM and on a winding country road and coming up a hill and around a curve and there in front of me was a tree across the road. The bike did some side to side and I can't tell you what I did. I just know I managed to move to the left enough to clear the tree. I thought I was going down but the next thing you know I was alongside the tree and then the bike straightened up and I was on my way.

The other time I was on a day ride and a truck ran a stop sign. I locked it for that one and the bike did the side to side. Missed the truck by inches and once again the bike made it through without going down.

Thanks for the thread XGringo and the information you gave.

[Loafer]

[quote author=xgringo board=general thread=19766 post=297655 time=I just thought this was an interesting little tidbit that I would pass along for your consideration. I won't mention the name of the book because it was printed in China and I don't want to help it's sales.

Tom[/quote]

I wish you would reconsider, giving us the name of the book and author, might really be a benifit to all of us here.

[peterdarby]

I have locked the brakes several times in the course of almost forty years of riding. Once at 100+ and multiple times at slower speeds. When I lock the rear brake I am also locking the front andI have always stayed in a straight line. ( I attribute this to learning to ride dirt and being able to keep the rear wheel centered. Of course I might just be fooling myself.) However, if the back wheel starts to go off line releasing the brake all at once will tend to throw your back end out the other way because once the tire starts rolling it will try to get back in line with the front tire and can be thrown out of line on the other side.

[flavor]

If you ride a motorcycle you will lock the rear wheel eventually. Hopefully it happens when you are going straight. Controlling rear brake pressure so the rear wheel doesn't lock up and skid during a panic stop is not easy. I guess the best analogy is like being on ice.

DON'T LIKE IT............ ::)

[Sin City Stan]

I've locked up the rear brake a number of times through the years and it's usually accompanied by hard front braking. When the rear end starts to come around a little front counter steer always took care of it. Same thing when I get a rear wheel lockup downshifting.

I have noticed that the Nomad does not seem to get out of step with the rear wheel lockup nearly as bad as other lighter bikes do.

[caper]

Good subject ! Well worth talking about, I have been told, in bike classes, that in an emergency stop to use both front and back brakes and if you lock up the back just leave it locked?? and get on that front break its 75% of you're breaking power!! I use the back break alone only when doing slow manuvers! I alwasy use both breaks when riding! The reasons 1. the bike stops faster and in control 2. if you use 2 breaks all the time when it comes to a reflex time, emergency, my reflex will apply both brakes? and thats all I got to say on that !!

[Top Cat]

I think most everyone uses both brakes including me.
I don't agree with if the rear wheel locks up leave it locked http://s2.images.proboards.com/shocked.gif
I think that is a sure way to put your bike on the ground.
I locked up the rear brake and the back of the Nomad went to the side a little. I immediately let off and it came back in line.
I was riding two up with Cindy and missed a curve on my 650 Yamaha. Went right off into a field. Didn't think I had the back brake locked as it was sliding on the clover. The back end came around and down we went. It was like sliding into second base. The bike went on ahead and I was sliding behind it. It did a complete side to side flip when the pegs caught the dirt. The bike got bent levers and broken windshield but all Cindy and I got was some grass stain on our a$$. http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

[Cajunrider]

I think most everyone uses both brakes including me.
I don't agree with if the rear wheel locks up leave it locked http://s2.images.proboards.com/shocked.gif
I think that is a sure way to put your bike on the ground.I locked up the rear brake and the back of the Nomad went to the side a little. I immediately let off and it came back in line.
I was riding two up with Cindy and missed a curve on my 650 Yamaha. Went right off into a field. Didn't think I had the back brake locked as it was sliding on the clover. The back end came around and down we went. It was like sliding into second base. The bike went on ahead and I was sliding behind it. It did a complete side to side flip when the pegs caught the dirt. The bike got bent levers and broken windshield but all Cindy and I got was some grass stain on our a$$. http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

Tim, What they were saying is if the bike is in a sideways slide, try to regain control with the wheel locked by steering. Releasing the brake when in a slide will allow the rear wheel to suddenly regain traction resulting in it whipping back around violently causing a high side dismount. My first instinct would be to release the rear brake but as "Ride Like a Pro" Jerry says, "Your instinct can be wrong and cause you to crash". If it hasn't started sliding yet releasing the brake and reapplying would be the right move. I'm not talking from experience, I'm just quoting what the experts said. Check out the link below.

http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=144

[AlabamaNomadRider]

The problem I have in those situations is that it all happens so fast you really don't have time to think about what you are doing. I can only hope my reflexes do the correct thing. So far in my two situations with one being on the Honda VTX1300 and the other being on the Nomad I guess my reflexes did the correct thing. Have to say the Nomad did much better than the VTX. I guess the extra weight helped out.

[Dave]

This is one of the reasons I love ABS on a bike. I'm not sure, in a panic stop, if I'll remember to not lock the rear brake. Hopefully that $700 ABS option will turn out to be cheaper than a skin graft.

[flavor]

I would like ABS in the rear of a bike under panic situations if it worked as designed. Over the course of the years the ABS in some of my vehicles were suspect as far as performance.

Interesting topic though since it's so tough to regulate the pressure of a rear motorcycle brake during a panic stop.

Thankfully we shouldn't have that situation happen to often.

[rickyboy]

when I owned my Venture I locked up my rear brake when a deer came out right beside me {and I mean right beside me} It scared the sh%t out of me. It trotted right beside me for what seemed like a second. I have always thought the deer tried to get in frt. of me and took out the frt. wheel,... forcing me down. There is a "blank spot" in my memory of that moment. But after many yrs. of re thinking the whole thing, I now believe it was me "standing on" my rear brake and swerving a bit, that made me go down. How else would the deer have survived that and crossed between me and the windscreen {leaving deer sh%t on the screen} and end up laying in the ditch on the far side of the road? The way she was crossing to begin with. And me skidding on the side of my ass and my bike?
Good post and question BTW

[Top Cat]

Mitch, I read the link but I still say if you lock up the read wheel and keep it locked , you are going down. No amount of counter steering is going to right the bike if you leave the wheel skidding.
Granted there is a point where if the rear brake is released you will high side. I think the trick is knowing where that point of no return is.
In my example in the thread about my experience in the clover field I was way beyond the point of no return before I even realized it was locked up. I low sided. If I was on pavement and let off I am sure I would have high sided.
But, in the case of Cindys lockup, she realized the rear was starting to slide and let off to right the bike before it got to the point of no return.
Not meaning to argue, just stating my experience and opinion. http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

[rickyboy]

Mitch, I read the link but I still say if you lock up the read wheel and keep it locked , you are going down. No amount of counter steering is going to right the bike if you leave the wheel skidding.
Granted there is a point where if the rear brake is released you will high side. I think the trick is knowing where that point of no return is.
In my example in the thread about my experience in the clover field I was way beyond the point of no return before I even realized it was locked up. I low sided. If I was on pavement and let off I am sure I would have high sided.
But, in the case of Cindys lockup, she realized the rear was starting to slide and let off to right the bike before it got to the point of no return.
Not meaning to argue, just stating my experience and opinion. http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif



Oh sure T.C. always looking for a fight.. ;)
In my case it was when I lacked experience and I think I stayed on the brake. I think you are correct.

[Top Cat]

Rick, if the deer was in the ditch you obviously hit the deer or the deer hit you.
I am inclined to believe the deer tried to cross the road and hit you mid ship. Not at road level but up in the air as she tried to clear your bike. Then as you and the bike were going down crossed over you at a point midway between you and the windshield taking a crap on the way.
I am not an accident reconstruction specialist but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

[Cajunrider]

I know you're trying to argue TC....you always do. http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif In the link they mention anything more than 10 degrees will likely result in a high side. That doesn't sound like much but if you strike a 10 degree line from the front wheel just past the back wheel it is quite a bit. 2 feet or more. The Nomad wheelbase is pretty long. I wouldn't know what 10 degrees is in a panic stop so I will just have to rely on my instincts I guess. When it comes time to replace this back CT, I want to practice panic stops locking the rear wheel from 20 mph slowly progressing up. It's something we all should do to see how our bikes react on dry pavement in a panic situation. I try to ride safely on dry and wet pavements but I will admit I am much more cautious on a wet road.

[rickyboy]

Rick, if the deer was in the ditch you obviously hit the deer or the deer hit you.
I am inclined to believe the deer tried to cross the road and hit you mid ship. Not at road level but up in the air as she tried to clear your bike. Then as you and the bike were going down crossed over you at a point midway between you and the windshield taking a crap on the way.
I am not an accident reconstruction specialist but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif


By what you say TC...the deer hit the frt. wheel then. It trotted beside me,.....maybe 4-5 steps { I can still hear her hoofs beside me} before I started to go down and I saw my wife's foot cross in frt. of my eyes as she got tossed. .........Ya I'm not really sure but I have thought over and over that had I NOT hit the rear brake so hard/locked it up? I might have ended better off. What sticks in my mind is how close I must have been to getting one or two of those hoofs in the face or head. That would have resulted in a totally different outcome and I may not be typing this today, for one reason or another.

[macmac]

Don't be cutchin IN, unless you have presence of mind to be down shifting like a demon! And if you do have that presents of mind hit the kill switch too!

You can use that engine compression to bite thru loose sand on paved surfaces.

There is no need or good to be done by clutching In unless you are also down shifting and clutching out in a timely mannor.

So far I have only had panic stops pretty much going straight. In this pic I was pretty much going straight with both tire screeming.

This is 81.5 feet measured that day after the crash. There is a patch to the right of mine I didn't do, and mine seems to be missing some black, but that was for backing off both brakes a little and I could still hear them screeching.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll275/Mac_Muz/Moose/81andahalffeet.jpg

[Cajunrider]

Mac, you almost passed up your quilt shop. http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

[Sin City Stan]

if you strike a 10 degree line from the front wheel just past the back wheel it is quite a bit. 2 feet or more.

Could be wrong but quickly penciling it out. A 6' wheel base with a 2' offset is a little more than 18 degrees. so we're talking a little more that a foot at 10 degrees.

The 6' wheelbase is a guess based on the 8' total length.

Firstly, in spite of the maps below that I proudly display I'm on a come-back after a thirty two year lay-off and I defer to everyone with more experience than me on a modern motorcycle. These Nomads are very different animals from my newest previous bike a 1975 Electra-Glide.

Anyway, I just replayed the Palladino DVD at 2x speed (which I recommend because it helps on the timing of his humor) to find his exact statement on this and here it goes.

Jerry Palladino says "you can still steer the motorcycle even with the rear tire locked". Jerry also says he's heard people say that they have locked the rear tire and then unlocked it and they didn't go down. Then I quote "And yes that could happen. Sometimes depending on how far out of line the bike gets and the speed that you're going. If you're going sixty seventy miles an hour and you lock that rear tire and then you suddenly release it. I guarantee you it's going to highside you".

This is America the beautiful the lawsuit capital of the world. So this is probably the party line on this issue that won't get anyone including the author of the book I mentioned in trouble. Also, the word suddenly in the quote above makes a big difference in what Jerry is saying. This makes me think that someone who is highly skilled will be able to smooosh the release without a high side. That seems evident from previous posts. Me? I'm inclined to take the coward's way out and if I have the presence of mind to try to steer locked. The book has a three photo sequence of a highside and it ain't pretty.

Oh... and hey Loafer!! It's a double edge sword. If we don't buy the books then no books get published. But here we go with another industry going to China. And no, I'm not a printer I'm a house painter no employees no illegal aliens. So the name of the book is "Maximum Control" by Pat Hahn. Get it from your library. It's a big book with lots of pictures and exercises that nobody does.

Tom

[Cajunrider]

About 1' 2" if I did the radian/degree math correctly. I haven't used trig in over 38 years. I know.....that's no excuse.

[Top Cat]

Jerry Palladino says "you can still steer the motorcycle even with the rear tire locked". Jerry also says he's heard people say that they have locked the rear tire and then unlocked it and they didn't go down. Then I quote "And yes that could happen. Sometimes depending on how far out of line the bike gets and the speed that you're going. If you're going sixty seventy miles an hour and you lock that rear tire and then you suddenly release it. I guarantee you it's going to highside you".




Tom

Jerry Palladino says;you can still steer the motorcycle even with the rear tire locked.
I highly doubt the average rider could do that.

Jerry also says he's heard people say that they have locked the rear tire and then unlocked it and they didn't go down.
Yes, I said my wife did that, so I agree.

If you're going sixty seventy miles an hour and you lock that rear tire and then you suddenly release it. I guarantee you it's going to highside you.
I don't agree with that either, but I'm hoping I never have o find out. As I said before. I think it depends on how far out of line you get before releasing the brake.

I mean come on, who ya gonna believe, me or Jerry Palladino ;)

[Cajunrider]

Jerry http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

[Top Cat]

Rick, I don't think the deer hit your front fender. I think it was side of you and tried to jump over you and the bike but hit the bikes faring by the handlebars or there abouts. As you went down the deer went over or between you and he windshield.
I do agree you are very lucky not to have been hit by those hoofs. They will do an awful job on a person.

[Top Cat]

Jerry http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

I'm hurt. i do have feelings you know. :) ;)

[flavor]

Sorry TC done both. Locked the rear tire all the way to a stand still, (as I couldn't lighten pressure on the rear brake during a panic stop where inches meant contact or not), and coming home from Lake George locked up the rear in a sligh turn, kept counter steering and released the brakes when I saw the idiot finally came to a stop after entering halfway in my lane. (My brother in law Larry, who you met in Lake George witnessed that one as he was behind me).

[Loafer]

Sorry TC done both. Locked the rear tire all the way to a stand still, (as I couldn't lighten pressure on the rear brake during a panic stop where inches meant contact or not), and coming home from Lake George locked up the rear in a sligh turn, kept counter steering and released the brakes when I saw the idiot finally came to a stop after entering halfway in my lane. (My brother in law Larry, who you met in Lake George witnessed that one as he was behind me).

I think you did right.

[Loafer]

Oh... and hey Loafer!! It's a double edge sword. If we don't buy the books then no books get published. But here we go with another industry going to China. And no, I'm not a printer I'm a house painter no employees no illegal aliens. So the name of the book is "Maximum Control" by Pat Hahn. Get it from your library. It's a big book with lots of pictures and exercises that nobody does.

Tom[/quote]

Thank you for the info, much appreciated. I promise I won't buy it.
I've seen pictures of aliens, I wouldn't have them around either.
;)

[Yellow Jacket]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is the need to practice maximum braking stops. I'm preaching to myself as well, because I don't do it as much as I should. A properly executed maximum braking effort will not lock up either the rear or the front tire. But, it does take practice to learn. The more we practice all-out braking the more chance we will have of doing it right in a panic situation.

[Cajunrider]

You are so right Bob. I did quite a bit of max brake practicing when I first got the Nomad. Did it in our church parking lot. After a few times I stopped. It's been at least 2 years since the last time. I'm overdue to hit that parking lot again, for scooter practice anyway.

[Top Cat]

Sorry TC done both. Locked the rear tire all the way to a stand still, (as I couldn't lighten pressure on the rear brake during a panic stop where inches meant contact or not), and coming home from Lake George locked up the rear in a sligh turn, kept counter steering and released the brakes when I saw the idiot finally came to a stop after entering halfway in my lane. (My brother in law Larry, who you met in Lake George witnessed that one as he was behind me).

Glad you cme out of both incedents unhurt Flav.
But I think you may be the exception to the rule. I still don't think the AVERAGE RIDER can lock up a rear in a curve and not go down.
What speed were you going in each incedent?

[flavor]

TC
My guess is about 60 on the one in the turn returning from Lake George. Mind you it wasn't a heavy turn but enough I had to counter steer because my back was skidding out.

Also if the turn as sharper I would have been going slower.

Think of the dirt track riders though. They use the sliding out in a turn. But I can picture taking that same guy sliding out and beam him to a paved road while in a turn and the bike's wheels will grab and he'll flip over the bike with the bike following him just like those road racers. That is one of the ugliest falls i've seen and actually experienced once.

I'll try to make the story quick.

Back in the 70's I was running and errand in NYC for a friends mother. Came over the top of a hill doing about 35 MPH after after it had rained, red light a short block and a half away, hit the brake but started skidding, got off brakes, re-appled them again, down shifted, no good. Was going to hit the car stopped at the light in the rear, turned the bike side ways like a dirt bike, sliding still toward the intersection, until the wheels grabbed on a piece of dry pavement, bike flipped me over and was following me. (Must've been a lot of oil on the road that came to the surface). Light chaged green. Kid driving a '68 colony psark station wagon started coming trrought he intersection up the hill. Since I had vinyl postal rain gear on I just kept sliding. Wound up completely under that station wagon as he came to a stop. My head was looking at the trainey.

You want to talk about how fast your mind works. Not too many yrs before that my uncle returned from NAM and when I got the motorcycle he told me a story where a guy on motorcycle slid toward a truck. He t5ried to stop by grabbing the grill and ripped himself open. Heart exposed lung etc., and died on the spot,

That sory went throught my mind in a flash. So whn sliding in this incident I turned my head side ways and gave a fore arm shiv to the bumper to slow my slide.

Anyway I crawled from under the station wagon unscathed, not even a scratch. The motorcycle had minor damage, handlebars mirrors, levers, directionals, master cylinder cover spun off across the road as the friction of sliding on the cover actually spun it.

When I got out from under the wagon I slammed my helmet into the ground, (don't know why), and looked at the people waiting for a bus at the stop.

I guess I scared the sh*t out of two girls I knew at the time that saw it happen.

If you're wondering I was too busy reacting to the situation to be scared.

Anyway excuse spelling etc. gotta go to work, running a little behind.

[Loafer]

Wa-hoo, my heart was racing just reading that.

[bobhamlin]

Flavor,

A little bow toward the bus stop people and a "Ta-daHH" would have been a nice touch.

Glad you are able to describe what happened!!

[moloprintz]

Flavor,
That scares me just reading it!!!
It's enought to make me slow down!!

Note: The roads are at their worst when it first starts raining.
The water mixes with the oil.

To bad you couldn't jump up and bow to the bus stop people and say "And THAT is why I won't do 2 shows a night!"
Mike

[flavor]

LOL maybe I should have gone for the sympathy kisses etc from the two young women that knew me..............that were standing at the stop. http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

[Top Cat]

Damn Jim, that would have made a great story for around the campfire at the Rally. I wish I had known I would of had you tell it there. http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

[flavor]

TC

We couldn't have found out everything about everybody in 3 days. Hell people that know me my whole life don't even know me as well as they think.

Just a good reason to get together again.

[flavor]

Flavor,
That scares me just reading it!!!
It's enought to make me slow down!!

Note: The roads are at their worst when it first starts raining.
The water mixes with the oil.

To bad you couldn't jump up and bow to the bus stop people and say "And THAT is why I won't do 2 shows a night!"
Mike

I think the oil n water was helped by an oil truck leaking from a hose not secured. Not just oil coming to the surface. But let it be known when going down a hill that's wet and trying to stop, is nothing like when you add oil to the mix.