Could there be another import to compete with?

[skiman]

Say it isn't so

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/top-stocks/blog.aspx?post=1789378&_blg=1,1789378

[cactusjack]

Sadly, the cost of manufacturing in the USA makes it difficult for companies to remain competitive. This would really hurt HD's image.

[rflnomad]

Here is my view. We have owned 3 Harleys. 87 883 Sportster, 95 Electra Glide Classic and 04 Dyna Super Glide FXD.

We like them all.

But, the narrowing of HDs market share is embarassing. How can you run a company, bank your entire 'future' on 50+ year olds and not attract a wider demographic?

I recently went to the local dealer and they had one of the new XR1200R Sportsters in stock. A bike WAY overdue for the company. Where was it? In the BACK of the showroom next to the soda machine!!!!! It got NO exposure. I went to the sales manager and he said, "Not going to get that excited about 1 model..." But, he had 3 Rockers by the front door.

Just a shame. I know their costs are high, but give us bikes for the masses.

[1badbagger]

I really do not want to see HD struggle or fail. They are an american icon. The style of the bikes have set the precedence for most of the cruisers on the market. That being said, Harley is a victim of their own success. Other than the VROD, Harley has offered nothing new or different. They are not willing to try something new for fear many of their core buyers may leave them. The truth is, if they would just put the HD on the tanks, the folks that "have to have a Harley" will still feel the same.

I think HD could take a lesson from the american pony car mfg's. You can now buy a Mustang, Charger, Challenger, or Camaro that pay homage to the originals, but are faster, more reliable, get better gas mileage, and handle much better. Victory's new Cross Roads / County also pay homage to the 'King and Electra, but are their own bikes. Again, why is this so hard for HD to figure out? Until they do figure it out, I have a feeling they will continue their decline.

[ringadingh]

I would hate to see anything happen to HD as well, whenever you go to any bike event a lot of the machines are predominently HD. They have sold a lot of units over the years. Since they havn't changed drastically that much, you would figure their production costs would be a lot lower than the competition.
A couple years ago I toured the York Pa. plant, I spoke with one of the employees for a minute, and he said they get around $20.00 an hour. To me thats doesn't seem out of line at all, its hard to get buy on anything less than that. I certainly hope they sort things out and are able to get through this.

[Loafer]

I hope they stay where they are. There are too few jobs, maybe the administration could give them another bail out? Its been done and they paid it back, right?

[kenb]

HD needs to get into racing other than 1/4 mile and dirt track to bring in the younger folk. If they spend some of the money they make off dog collars, salad tongs, and salt and pepper shakers on developing a "true" performance machine with U.S. roots, and win, they will sell bikes. If HD only made profit on selling motorcycles, not the chinese stuff with their logo on it, they would have been gone long ago.

[kenb]

I hope they stay where they are. There are too few jobs, maybe the administration could give them another bail out? Its been done and they paid it back, right?

With help of a tarrif on import bikes bigger than 750cc! Bailed out a company and make the better quality competition harder to buy! HD still couldn't (and can't) keep up with the import quality and technology. They buy import parts to put on "American" bikes because HD engineers haven't graduated from points, condensers and springs under the seats!

[skiman]

Well I would think if we really cared about the future of HD we would be riding one of their bikes right now but we're not, sure we don't want to see their employees loose their jobs just not enough to buy one of the bikes they make to help ensure that doesn't happen. And it sure doesn't help the that thousands of HD's are flooding the used market.

[Dave]

HD engineers haven't graduated from points, condensers and springs under the seats!


I have springs under my seat? And all this time I thought I had fuel injection. Thanks for enlightening me. I just can't believe they lied to me!!

[redjay]

I dont ride a Harley for two reasons. Firstly I rode one and didnt like it at all. Secondly I dont have the money it takes to buy one, and if I did I still wouldnt buy one.

[recumbentbob]

Article said they were looking at 2 locations in the states. So they would not be imported from off shore.

To me it sounds like they just want to break the union ties.

A Harley built by scabs............... http://s2.images.proboards.com/cheesy.gif

[kenb]

HD engineers haven't graduated from points, condensers and springs under the seats!


I have springs under my seat? And all this time I thought I had fuel injection. Thanks for enlightening me. I just can't believe they lied to me!!

Take a look at a 2011 Cross Bones. Its got them hi tec seat springs. And if your talkin about fuel injection or any electronics on a HD, let me know if it has"made in U.S.A." on it!

[Dave]

I have springs under my seat? And all this time I thought I had fuel injection. Thanks for enlightening me. I just can't believe they lied to me!!

Take a look at a 2011 Cross Bones. Its got them hi tec seat springs. And if your talkin about fuel injection or any electronics on a HD, let me know if it has"made in U.S.A." on it!

What does "made in the USA" have to do with you original post?
I never posted anything about Harley's and made in the USA.

[kenb]

I figured since you were commenting on "HD engineers haven't graduated from points, condensers and springs under the seats!" that you were familiar with HD engineering (or lack of). My apologies for any mis-understanding. And for whoever "they" are.

[AlabamaNomadRider]

I read the article in my local paper and the way it stated the problem is that the wages are far to expensive. The article stated that Harley Davidson is looking at other states but would not mention which states. Nothing mentioned about moving the operations overseas. Headquarters would remain in Milwaukee.

[skiman]

Well I wonder where in the US they will save enough on labor to pay for the move

[Dave]

Well I wonder where in the US they will save enough on labor to pay for the move

Southern California. We have all the illegals they need. And the Government refuses to enforce the laws that prohibit employers from hiring illegals.

[Loafer]

Is Puerto Rico a state yet? In Vermont we have some empty Granite and Marble plants that are no longer in business. I know a lot of people here would take a job for $15.00 an hour. And they would be excellant workers.

[Stump]

Well I've been on two wheels most of my life and I've rode harley's and I don't like them very much thats the reason I'am riding my nomad , I don't put anyone down for liking harleys my wife has a 08 883 sportster and I let her ride it and she loves her HD but I don't see paying twice the money for a bike that is'nt any better or worst than what I ride . Everybody has their likes and do'nt likes I guess its up to the person with the money to choose . And I guess HD has'nt figured that out yet , the new generation wants speed , and like alot of you'll said HD needs to change with the times and get out of the past , the wages are'nt the problam it's that they are still in the past , and the prices are for the well off people, a working man now a days can't afford a new bike for HD thats the reason there is alot of used HD on the market . But thats just my thoughts on the matter . LONG LIVE THE NOMAD !!!!!!

[1badbagger]

Harley definately needs some new life in their line. I think getting rid of Buell will hurt more in the long run. That was the closest thing they had to a performance bike. If HD wants to stay on their present course, they can take a look at the new Indians and see how they are selling. 35,000 for turn of the century technology and I haven't seen a lot of them on the road.

[poppy]

HD engineers haven't graduated from points, condensers and springs under the seats!


I have springs under my seat? And all this time I thought I had fuel injection. Thanks for enlightening me. I just can't believe they lied to me!!

Help me out....What does springs under the seat have to do with fuel injection? Springs under the seats are suspension related...

[xncrman]

I believe that HD management are seeing dollar signs by capitalizing on the staggering recession that won't just go away. Like many of the companies in Michigan that are not union, HD wants to move where they can use a local temp agency to supply $9.00 pr/hr labor with no benefits, and I am sure that the boys setting around the big table are salivating with that thought. To take a work force that makes $16-$20 plus benefits to $9 with no benefits, the greedy get greedier and the middle class continues to shrink.

Maybe they should look at improving there production lines and their products. I can't imagine that HD will lower the cost of their bikes and I can't imagine us 50+ guys are going to have the bucks to buy that $30K - $35K motorcycle when all our 401K have been depleted and our home values are now at a 40% loss. So maybe they might want to get there heads out of there 100 year old ass and make some products for the younger generations other than the HOG. My GOD that would be sacrilege!!!! http://s2.images.proboards.com/lipsrsealed.gif

[ponch]

HD has done well by me. I used to own stock in them and sold it to buy my Vulcan 800 classic.

[ponch]

More progressive straw man arguments. HD is in the business to make a profit, not first to employ people. Milwaukee is a union city and like other manufacturers, they find themselves with high production costs related to employee costs. If what you say is true, that the rich get richer, it not because of greed, it's because they think differently. That is the only difference between successful people and unsuccessful people for the most part. So a man thinketh in his heart, he is. On the other hand, I can't fault any company for wanting to make a profit, and it's not up to you, I or the government to decide what that is or if it's fair. It's what the market bears.


I believe that HD management are seeing dollar signs by capitalizing on the staggering recession that won't just go away. Like many of the companies in Michigan that are not union, HD wants to move where they can use a local temp agency to supply $9.00 pr/hr labor with no benefits, and I am sure that the boys setting around the big table are salivating with that thought. To take a work force that makes $16-$20 plus benefits to $9 with no benefits, the greedy get greedier and the middle class continues to shrink.

Maybe they should look at improving there production lines and their products. I can't imagine that HD will lower the cost of their bikes and I can't imagine us 50+ guys are going to have the bucks to buy that $30K - $35K motorcycle when all our 401K have been depleted and our home values are now at a 40% loss. So maybe they might want to get there heads out of there 100 year old ass and make some products for the younger generations other than the HOG. My GOD that would be sacrilege!!!! http://s2.images.proboards.com/lipsrsealed.gif

[Dave]

The way most of you talk about businesses wanting to make a profit, would make Lenin proud! This business is evil attitude amazes me.

[pastorgumby]

I just took a road trip to the Harley Factory in York, Pa with a few guys (375 miles total trip). I have a new found appreciation for HD, as I went on the factory tour - very impressive!

I simply don't buy into the whole HD culture which tends to be very exclusive and snobbish; a lot of nationalism entwined in the brand (I get a good heaping of crap from HD riders when given an opportunity).

I'm not apologetic for loving my Nomad-- I don't have the money to buy a HD, and prefer Jap bikes overall... as the joke goes, there needs to be a Jap bike following behind a Harley... carrying the tools to fix 'em. ;)

[xncrman]

Yes I must be a progressive straw man if believing the OUR Country is best served with a balance economic system, where the rich or business people can thrive and a nation has jobs above poverty. Where a man can support his wife and children with the basics and a future. But I know that everyone sees or desires the scale balanced differently. Maybe the "ME" generation has dulled it's senses, but I believe we all want the best for our family, friends and neighbors. All American's are somebodies family or friend or neighbor, is that so bad? So I am a compassionate progressive straw man, OK! I would buy a HD if I could afford one, maybe.



More progressive straw man arguments. HD is in the business to make a profit, not first to employ people. Milwaukee is a union city and like other manufacturers, they find themselves with high production costs related to employee costs. If what you say is true, that the rich get richer, it not because of greed, it's because they think differently. That is the only difference between successful people and unsuccessful people for the most part. So a man thinketh in his heart, he is. On the other hand, I can't fault any company for wanting to make a profit, and it's not up to you, I or the government to decide what that is or if it's fair. It's what the market bears.


I believe that HD management are seeing dollar signs by capitalizing on the staggering recession that won't just go away. Like many of the companies in Michigan that are not union, HD wants to move where they can use a local temp agency to supply $9.00 pr/hr labor with no benefits, and I am sure that the boys setting around the big table are salivating with that thought. To take a work force that makes $16-$20 plus benefits to $9 with no benefits, the greedy get greedier and the middle class continues to shrink.

Maybe they should look at improving there production lines and their products. I can't imagine that HD will lower the cost of their bikes and I can't imagine us 50+ guys are going to have the bucks to buy that $30K - $35K motorcycle when all our 401K have been depleted and our home values are now at a 40% loss. So maybe they might want to get there heads out of there 100 year old ass and make some products for the younger generations other than the HOG. My GOD that would be sacrilege!!!! http://s2.images.proboards.com/lipsrsealed.gif

[coacha]

Sad story. I couldn't afford a HD if I had all the kids out of the house and I wouldn't buy one if I could. Just not all caught up in the attitude and such plus the one I rode for 3 days was not a HOG it was a PIG!

[medicaldawg]

Personally i like HD. I think they are beautiful bikes. Harley definitely got all the lines right way back when but come on update ur line. Did Harley just turn their nose up at the hole crotch rocket thing in the nineties. I bought a pair of risers for my nomad for 32 bucks. How much would you think those would cost at a Harley dealer ship. I wanted a face mask for winter last year. The one that said Harley was 50 dollars. The one that had a skull on the front of it with no mention of Harley was 10 bucks. Though we are in a tough economic time the rational people of this country have always saved their money when it comes to luxury items. The only way i would ride a Harley would be if someone gave it to me. Dont get me wrong i love my bike but i got a family first ya know. So if Harley wants to fix that knock in their engine they need to get there heads out of their ass and listen to the people that dont ride them and why they dont. ........ p.s. something i noticed after i finished this little peice. WOW we are very opinionated about this topic aren't we hahahahaha

[Sin City Stan]

More progressive straw man arguments. HD is in the business to make a profit, not first to employ people. Milwaukee is a union city and like other manufacturers, they find themselves with high production costs related to employee costs. If what you say is true, that the rich get richer, it not because of greed, it's because they think differently. That is the only difference between successful people and unsuccessful people for the most part. So a man thinketh in his heart, he is. On the other hand, I can't fault any company for wanting to make a profit, and it's not up to you, I or the government to decide what that is or if it's fair. It's what the market bears.


I believe that HD management are seeing dollar signs by capitalizing on the staggering recession that won't just go away. Like many of the companies in Michigan that are not union, HD wants to move where they can use a local temp agency to supply $9.00 pr/hr labor with no benefits, and I am sure that the boys setting around the big table are salivating with that thought. To take a work force that makes $16-$20 plus benefits to $9 with no benefits, the greedy get greedier and the middle class continues to shrink.

Maybe they should look at improving there production lines and their products. I can't imagine that HD will lower the cost of their bikes and I can't imagine us 50+ guys are going to have the bucks to buy that $30K - $35K motorcycle when all our 401K have been depleted and our home values are now at a 40% loss. So maybe they might want to get there heads out of there 100 year old ass and make some products for the younger generations other than the HOG. My GOD that would be sacrilege!!!! http://s2.images.proboards.com/lipsrsealed.gif

Like I said before, a Company has to make money (profits) or there will be no shareholders i.e. no Company.

However, I have to temper that with Harley's business plan which is aimed at almost entirely 50 & 60 year olds. They haven't seemed to notice that we're running out of 50 & 60 year olds faster than we're making them and their expendable income is being sharply curtailed. No CUSTOMERS also means no Company.

I wish Harley and Milwaukee good luck.

[Loafer]

Two of my sons ride MC's, and they have some friends that ride, whose fathers have HD's. I'm starting to hear that as the fathers decide not to ride anymore for health reasons. There offspring are buying dad's bike at a reduced price. My sons say they can't beleive how much money is being spent at the HD shops. Because the children wish to make the bike more of there own.

[ponch]

One, that is a sense of entitlement. Sorry, but that dog don't hunt. Second, who decides what is fair and what isn't? That's leaving things to politics and someone picks winners and losers. NAture does a better job than we do. Lastly, I don't believe things are quite as bad as you say they are. While the economy does suck, we are doing a lot better in general than most, and when you look at how the economy went down, the real greed was people that took loans that never should have.

No one or government owes anyone a living or even a standard of living. It is up to each of us as individuals to make it happen. Again, it's in how we think.



Yes I must be a progressive straw man if believing the OUR Country is best served with a balance economic system, where the rich or business people can thrive and a nation has jobs above poverty. Where a man can support his wife and children with the basics and a future. But I know that everyone sees or desires the scale balanced differently. Maybe the "ME" generation has dulled it's senses, but I believe we all want the best for our family, friends and neighbors. All American's are somebodies family or friend or neighbor, is that so bad? So I am a compassionate progressive straw man, OK! I would buy a HD if I could afford one, maybe.



More progressive straw man arguments. HD is in the business to make a profit, not first to employ people. Milwaukee is a union city and like other manufacturers, they find themselves with high production costs related to employee costs. If what you say is true, that the rich get richer, it not because of greed, it's because they think differently. That is the only difference between successful people and unsuccessful people for the most part. So a man thinketh in his heart, he is. On the other hand, I can't fault any company for wanting to make a profit, and it's not up to you, I or the government to decide what that is or if it's fair. It's what the market bears.

[glwilson]

I would have to agree Ponch.

[Sin City Stan]

One, that is a sense of entitlement. Sorry, but that dog don't hunt. Second, who decides what is fair and what isn't? That's leaving things to politics and someone picks winners and losers. NAture does a better job than we do. Lastly, I don't believe things are quite as bad as you say they are. While the economy does suck, we are doing a lot better in general than most, and when you look at how the economy went down, the real greed was people that took loans that never should have.

No one or government owes anyone a living or even a standard of living. It is up to each of us as individuals to make it happen. Again, it's in how we think.








+++++++1