FI2000R - Inconsistent idle

[danleb75]

I've got my FI2000r installed, and am pleased with the extra pulling power up hills, and with a passenger. Still get some pinging in 5th going up hills at 65mph, but a quick downshift cures that. Still on the 91 octane, and not really interested in trying the lower grade.

I have the settings at 3-5-0, and have noticed 2 negatives. First, when coming to a stop, the bike has a hard time finding it's idle speed. It speeds up really fast then slows down, speeds up really fast then slows down. Only does it once the engine is warm. Cold idle in the driveway is great. Second, I think I have a little piggy on gas now. I am down to one bar on the gas guage today, only after 200km (120 miles).

I have set the pots down to 2-4-0 to see if the idle settles out and the mileage gets back closer to where it was before.

I am stock, with a K&N and the de-baffle.

[Idaho]

This is interesting. Unless the FI2000r is the wrong model it should clean up the idle issue, mine did. It was the reason why I put the thing on the bike. You might try cleaning the throttle body with some Seafoam and a toothbrush. Also double check to make sure that everything it hooked up correctly and all of the plugs are fully snapped together.

My mileage also went down but that is because I'm running at 75 most of the time. When I keep the bike below 60 it get reasonable mileage.

[upside22]

This seems to be the second thread on idle problems when using a fuel processor.

My 2007 doesn't do this. It doesn't ping at any speed. It doesn't hunt or surge at idle.

If it was a lawn mower with a governor I'd tell you that the govenor weights were screwed up allowing it to rev up, slow down, rev up, slow down, etc.

The only thing I can think of is a vacuum leak somewhere that gets worse after things have heated up and expanded. It's sucking air and leaning out the mixture at idle. As it revs up it runs out of fuel and slows down. Then it speeds up again from leaning out and repeats. This could also explain pinging at speed -- even with the processor it may be too lean from a vacuum leak.

Any fuel processor that adds fuel is going to have a negative impact on gas mileage. Nothing in life is free.

[danleb75]

Could it be due to coming into a stop while using the engine compression to brake, as opposed to coasting in and using the real brakes? Can the injectors "load-up" with fuel causing inconsistent idle until they get cleared out?

Idaho, I did the throttle body a couple weeks ago. Plus, I've got a Tsukayu fairing and the 180 tire in the rear, so my bike is forcing most of the time.

Upside, do you have the same setup as me with the K&N and de-baffled stock pipes?

[AlabamaNomadRider]

I have had no idle problems since adding the Cobra fuel processor. Do feel I lost just a little in MPGs though. Not so much on the highway as in town. In town is where I suffer the most.

[cactusjack]

I have an '07 with FI2000R, K&N intake, Cobra pipes, car tire, and a fairing. I've never experienced an idle problem like this.

[jandijkgraaf]

QuotI've got my FI2000r installed, and am pleased with the extra pulling power up hills, and with a passenger.

I wonder..how much of that pulling power you actually use going up hill.
Because..I do the same without some power commander at ease.
I mean..when going up hill one usually is in the higher r.p.m right?
So..what's the benefit apart from spending a lot more go juice?
Mine is performing pretty well in the mountains.
Completely stock..just V.H exaust.

[caddman11]

My bet would be your running rich. Basically, a debaffled stock bike with a stock intake and stock air, with those setting, I'd say your rich. I run the same setting with custom exhaust and caddmannq air. There is no problem with idle even when it's below 32 and that's with my solenoids disconnected. I run 87 gas, it knocks in 5 gear at 30mph if I open it up, and I smell hydrocarbons when I slow down, so I think my might be running rich. If I take it easy, I get better mileage than I did stock. So I vote for rich. http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

Oh yeah, I have an Fi2000 too.

[upside22]

I've done the Cadmann modification with K&N filters on each side. I have V&H Baggers.

The K&N filter will lean out your mixture since you will be getting more air. The debaffled stock pipes might provide you better scavenging of the cylinders but I'm just not knowledgeable enough to estimate how much better.

Neither should cause a hunting situation with your idle.

I compression brake with my bike all the time, it's a habit I learned racing dirt bikes. Anything which will allow getting deeper into the corner at a higher speed (i.e. better braking) makes you faster. I've never noticed any impact on the idle from doing so. I've never heard of injectors "loading" up. Your intake might load up with fuel but that would not cause the idle to "hunt". That would likely result in smoke from the exhaust pipe. I don't know why it would continue to load up, clear out, and then load up again.

Could your throttle position sensor be misadjusted? Is there a little slack somewhere that would allow it to move just a little while at an idle? When you have the throttle open the slack would disappear and you wouldn't notice any hunting.

If you rev the bike up just a *little* bit does the hunting go away or does it still continue to hunt?


Could it be due to coming into a stop while using the engine compression to brake, as opposed to coasting in and using the real brakes? Can the injectors "load-up" with fuel causing inconsistent idle until they get cleared out?

Idaho, I did the throttle body a couple weeks ago. Plus, I've got a Tsukayu fairing and the 180 tire in the rear, so my bike is forcing most of the time.

Upside, do you have the same setup as me with the K&N and de-baffled stock pipes?

[blowndodge]

The only problem I have with the "running rich" diagnosis is he's running premium and still getting a little ping. that wouldn't happen if he was truly rich.

Last year I adjusted mine so that I could run regular 87 in 100+ weather and still not ping. The plugs looked fine but my mileage sucked. I tune for premium so I could turn down my settings a little and get more miles per tankful.

If he's pinging he's not rich....

[caddman11]

I kind of question the ping at 65 mph in 5th on 91 octane. That's the snag. I really have to be in the wrong gear to get a knock at any speed. ???

[danleb75]

Thanks for all the discussion. For the throttle position.....I have less than 1/4" of play. If I give some steady throttle, it evens out fine. But, it's hard to keep it at a steady slow idle. It seems as soon as the throttle "grabs" it spins up quite a bit.

If I had to say when all this pinging came into question, it would be after installing the larger rear tire 180/70R16. Last summer on the stock Bridgestones, I can only remember it happening twice.

I also remember reading on one of these threads here that they changed something in the 07-up Nomads due to complaints about pinging.

Someone earlier wrote about a pinched vacuum hose.....where is this located?

On flat ground, I can accelerate in 5th no problem. But some of the hills around here, I can't maintain my speed let alone speed up.

The other day I was in fourth at 60 mph going up a hill. I got passed by my buddy on a Suzuki C90 in 5th gear. I couldn't try to catch up without that awfull knocking starting. Quite embarassing at the next stop!!!

However, it's been pretty darn hot here lately. 30C almost everyday, and humid to boot.

[macmac]

It isn't the fuel modual Go right ahead and set it all to off, this bwill still happen. What it is IS a vac uum leak, air is passing thru the system not metered. The type of vac leak you have is called hunting. Hunting is reviing up till it is too lean then stalling, but not quite since then the system recovers.

There is a vac line which could be leaking on either end to a vac pod which could be leaking. If this is a cali bike there is a vac line to the carbon canister which could be leaking.
If not the port on the intake throttle body could be leaking where it is factory capped off.

The intake manifold could be leaking at one or both clys and or behind the TB (throttle body)

The throttle shaft seals could be leaking, but that's about it, unless you have ISCs with their tubing leaking, and if not where these were capped off. (Idel Solenoid Controlls)

It is not any fuel modual doing this. period.

Oh I forgot, it could be the injector seals leaking.

I used to use WD-40 for testing, but zi think about a year ago they changed the formula to be EPA regs BS, which makes WD-40 less than useless to me now.

These days i use the cheapest old fashion plumbers torch head on a bottle of propane I can find. You don't light it.

Turn it on, hear it hiss, maybe smell at a distance, and then with the engine running , open TB aim the torch tight into the intake. What ever difference you hear there will be what you hear when you find the leak source. So thyen point the torch at every single thing i said.

[danleb75]

Well, if it's a vacuum leak, I obviously did it during the FI2000 installation. Great......

Where to start..........very discouraging consideration I'm not very mechanically inclined.

What about the hoses coming from the gas tank....anything there? Anything else to pinch under the tank?

[ringadingh]

Id clean the throttle body as Bud mentioned, you can use carb cleaner and a toothbrush. It wouldn't hurt to know its clean anyways.
And Id check for vacum leaks. You may have disturbed something while installing the fuel processor.

[danleb75]

I'm certain the throttle bodies are clean. I did them 2 weeks ago. What about a mis-aligned air filter? I had a hard time putting the "dog-bowl" back on with the air filter. Maybe it didn;t sit properly?

I'll try to lift the tank and check some hoses. Damn....I just filled it up too!!!

[ringadingh]

I doubt a poorly sealed air filter will do that, it sounds like a vacum leak, at least check and eliminate that possibility.

[danleb75]

So, I lifted the gas tank again, and nothing seems pinched. I made a few passes through the neighbourhood with pot 1 set at different settings. I got the best results with pot 1 completely off. It was still "hunting" but it seemed to recover easily. When I got home, I set it back to the recommend settings of 3-5-0, and will try again tomorrow to see if I can "dial" it in with the black idle adjustment knob. Probably useless to try, but to tell you the truth, I'm not skilled enough to try a find a vacuum leak.

If I were to bring it to a mechanic, do you think it's something they see often? Or will they charge me $$$ just to end up where I started?

[ringadingh]

If they check it with propane gas, acetalyne, or starting fluid, it should only take a couple minutes to check. If the motor revs up a bit you have a leak if it doesn't your fine. Just be carefull checking around the throttle body or the motor will suck in the gas and rev up giving you a false test result.
Before you take it in perhaps adjust the dials a little more one way or the other and see if that cures it.

[yoda]

Since you had to loosen and raise the tank for the install of the processor, the first thing I would do, is loosen the tank, raise it up and look all around for anything that might be loose. Check in around the injectors to see if you tugged anything when hooking the wires to the injectors, it's tight in there!

[upside22]

I wonder why it was hard to put the dogbowl back on? I doubt if this is the problem since it wouldn't upset the system at an idle.

Have you tried pulling the right side cover off to see if that helps? It won't hurt to start the bike without the right side cover and let it warm up to see if the idle starts to hunt. I just wouldn't go riding with it that way.

Again, since this affects only the air being seen on the atmosphere side of the butterflies in the throttle body I doubt if it is the trouble point causing the hunting but it won't hurt anything to try it out.

I'm still bettting on a vacuum leak somewhere. That can cause the hunting and can also cause a loss of power and pinging under load. If you pulled something electrical loose I don't think you would see idle hunting. Normally something electrical will either cause a dead miss in one cylinder or the bike won't start at all.

If you don't see hunting when the bike is first started then you don't have a *hard* leak that will be easy to find by just looking. It will take some work to find it.

I suppose it is possible you have a pinched fuel line but that doesn't really match with a loss of gas mileage. Usually this would *help* the gas mileage.

I'm not a nomad expert and I'm not a professional mechanic, just the son of one that became an electrical engineer so I wouldn't have to worry about *expectations*!

If you don't want to use a propane torch (its pretty big to manuever around) go see if you can find a little butane soldering torch. That should provide the same kind of testing. Don't light it, just aim it at points that could be leaking while the bike is running.

Keep at it. Don't get discouraged. The hard problems also provide the best stories later!


I'm certain the throttle bodies are clean. I did them 2 weeks ago. What about a mis-aligned air filter? I had a hard time putting the "dog-bowl" back on with the air filter. Maybe it didn;t sit properly?

I'll try to lift the tank and check some hoses. Damn....I just filled it up too!!!

[upside22]

Vacuum leaks don't normally take skill to find, just persistence!

Fixing it might be more of a problem but if you can tell the mechanic where to start looking it could save you a lot of money and save him some hassle.

I know rat shack used to sell a little Weller butane soldering torch for about $15. Not only would it work to find the leak you might find a use for it if you need to do some light soldering someday!

I suppose it's possible your idle speed is set way too low which might cause some hunting. Do you know what a 1000 rpm idle on a Nomad sounds like? Is there somewhere you can go listen to one that is working ok to see if the idle rpms match?

Most any professional mechanic has seen vacuum leaks if they work on anything with a carburator. They aren't as prevalant with newer cars that have fuel injection but they can happen even there. The same thing applies to motorcycles as well.


So, I lifted the gas tank again, and nothing seems pinched. I made a few passes through the neighbourhood with pot 1 set at different settings. I got the best results with pot 1 completely off. It was still "hunting" but it seemed to recover easily. When I got home, I set it back to the recommend settings of 3-5-0, and will try again tomorrow to see if I can "dial" it in with the black idle adjustment knob. Probably useless to try, but to tell you the truth, I'm not skilled enough to try a find a vacuum leak.

If I were to bring it to a mechanic, do you think it's something they see often? Or will they charge me $$$ just to end up where I started?

[danleb75]

Thanks guys for the input. Am I basically looking for a hose that leaks? I am looking for metal that leaks? Not really sure what to be looking for. I understand the torch principle, and why that would cause idle to change.

Is hunting and surging the same thing?

[caddman11]

Good question about the word hunting, I've been around motors for years and have never heard the term. From my understand, he only has a k&n filter, not the caddmann mod. Is this true? If it is I would start the Fi2000 at 0-0-0 and go from there.

[upside22]

It's usually a hose but not always. Someone pointed out that it could be a gasket, say a gasket between the intake manifold and the engine. A broken metal part usually seals after heating because of expansion but not always. You could have a cracked flange somewhere that leaks after expanding. I wouldn't worry about a broken metal part till you've exhausted all the vacuum hoses.

For me "hunting" and "surging" are close to being the same thing. You'll hear the term "hunting" more from the engineering types and "surging" from the mechanic types. Hunting would typically be caused by a control mechanism that oscillates around a point, e.g. your throttle sensor, because of resolution and/or tolerance issues. Surging is typically from a non-control mechanism effect, e.g. a vacuum leak. They can both cause the same kind of symptom, a motor that will not stay at a constant rpm. Hunting can be a design issue as well as a defect issue. Surging is usually just a defect issue.

Let me just summarize your symptoms.

1. non-constant idle when warm but ok when cold.
2. pinging at highway speeds when accelerating.
3. decreased gas mileage.
4. Power problems at highway speeds.

The decreased gas mileage would indicate the fuel processor is adding fuel to the mixture. This would typically result in a rich mixture. It could, however, be result of having to open the throttle more to compensate for a loss of power from a rich mixture caused by a blocked air path.

Pinging would indicate a lean mixture, not a rich one. This would indicate either a non-working processor or something like a vacuum leak.

Power problems can be caused by being rich or lean. A too rich mixture should have other indications. Smoke from the exhaust or a dark colored spark plug (from soot deposits) would be a couple. Being too lean is a little harder to diagnose in this manner although the spark plug might give you some indication. Too rich could come from either the processor or a plugged air path leading to the throtle body (why I suggested taking off the right side dogbowl to see if anything changed). Too lean could either be a fuel flow problem or a vacuum leak.

Non-constant idle could be a mechanical problem or something like a vacuum leak.

The vacuum leak is kind of a common thread but nothing leads to it being a conclusive diagnosis.

Finding the problem is just scientific process. Many mechanics won't admit it but they are some of the best practical scientists around. Observe the situation, formulate a hypothesis to explain the situation, design an experiment to test the hypothesis, and then analyze the experiment results to validate the hypothesis. If the hypothesis is not validated then come up with another hypothesis and repeat.

Taking off the right side dogbowl will test the hypothesis that you have an air blockage. Checking your sparkplugs will allow testing the hypotheses of a rich or lean mixture. Using the propane/butane test will help test the hypothesis of a vacuum leak.

If none of these produce a definitive result then things get a little sticky. It's possible you have a bad injector or even a collapsed lifter causing inflow or scavanging problems. Or a bad throttle position sensor. These are harder to test and typically require a shop and mechanic unles you are willing to do a lot of disassembly and perhaps test by replacing parts.

I wish we could pinpoint things better for you.


Thanks guys for the input. Am I basically looking for a hose that leaks? I am looking for metal that leaks? Not really sure what to be looking for. I understand the torch principle, and why that would cause idle to change.

Is hunting and surging the same thing?

[macmac]

Get a common old fashion plumbers torch head made to solder copper pipes in a house. The old kind you need to light with a match or lighter. Hardware stores still have these for under 5 bucks. To make it work better you could tape up the holes that allow air to mix in the tip.

Surging and hunting are the same thing to me. A vac leak must by it's very nature always be a un-metered air leak into the intake behind the throttle plates.

I don't know what all it is you have exactly. If the reed valves are still working there is a small diameter tubing from the throttle body to the vac pod. That line might have been tugged, and is on partly on, or it might be coincidence and the tubing is old has become loose and brittle.

The vac pod it self which runs the reed valves may have become bad at the same time. To tell, use a clean vac line to the pod and suck on the line as hard as you can then while doing that stick yer toung in the line and see if it lets go. All the larger hoses coming off the vac pod are air not passing the throttle plates, so they can not be vac leaks. The vac pod just turns them on and off with engine vacuum.

You could have bumped the ISC's (idel solenoid controlls) These feed extra air when the ecu ( computer) tells them too. The ISC's have rubber lines from them to steel lines at the backing plate and behind the backing plate another set of rubber lines again going to steel, and again back TO RUBBER. 3 times this takes place. The ISC's are located in the right side dog bowl.

I take it this isn't a California version, and so it has no carbon canister above the tool box, and it is likey you installed the cobra unit near where the carbon canister would be, a velcro strap should be there holding nothing.

Still on the TB there is a vac port capped of from the factory. I see no way you could bump that, but i guess it's possible. At any rate that cap as it ages will become brittle crack and dry out and will leak someday anyway.

Rubber lines coming directly off the tank are not vac lines. There is one at Rt ft, which is a rain water / car wash drain. The opening for it to drain water is concealed by the gas cap.

At rt rr on the tank is a fuel over flow, that just drains gas when you over fill the tank.

If this bike does some how have a cali tank on it then there is another metal tank port, but I don't think you have it, and it too is at rt rr (right rear) If you have it then make sure it is capped anyway. It is not a vac leak source, and would be a solid fuel and or fumes return from the carbon canister.

The places vac leaks can take place are very limited if you just bumped something.

Is this plug n' play? Perhaps you moved the injectors on their seals a bit too much?

The testing:

With the propane torch placed directly before the throttle plates with the engine running listen as the gas flows. You are adding invisable fuel, and something is going to happen.

You will hear that happen, remember the sound of what ever happens, then aim that tip at places you can tell have been aimed at. When you hit the correct one(s) the sound you heard before should return.

I doubt this, but double check the tank to injector line isn't leaking fuel. This is the gray plastic fitting and I suppose if could leak air into the line of fuel and cause this maybe, but before it did i should think fuel would blow all over the place first.

This really wouldn't be a vac leak either but a real bad lean miss if it can even happen.

[danleb75]

Thanks for all your info. Not sure I understand all the pieces and lines mentioned above (ie. pod, selenoid control, gas line, processor, etc.)

One question.....if it is in fact a vacuum leak, why does it only start happening after 15 mins of riding? Why would it not start earlier. I usually warm up my bike for 2-3 minutes before leaving the driveway, and the engine is plenty warm.

In order to access the area between the cylinders where this stuff is likely located, I need to lift the gas tank. How can I run the engine with the tank lifted, since the 2 connectors above the battery need to be disconnected.

Are there any fuses worth checking? When the bike is acting up, the FI light is not coming on.

[upside22]

To start testing don't worry about lifting the tank. Just aim the propane under the tank and see if anything happens. If it does then you will at least *know* that you have a vacuum leak. You can then worry about finding out what it is.

[macmac]

I am not sure we understand each other well, which is mostly my fault. I say things to much and to fast. Your terms and my terms are like 2 different languages which is also my fault.

Since this is after a warm up, does it stay hunting , or does that also stop if you ride further time?

This is called a thermal hunting vac leak in this case where before full warmed up everything is ok. As things heat up the vac leak develops, and some go away, which is tricky for any tech to find unless the vehical is allowed to cool , and the tech can start a search from cold to pass to full warm.

I am still 100% sure this is a vac leak.

No fuse has a thing to do with this. This IS un-metered air getting by the throttle plate some HOW.

At this point i am concerned to say to much since i don't get answers i want answered. Again my fault for giving you too much information.

Just answer this one question and we will go one question one answer at a time for now.

[danleb75]

It's hard to say if it stays hunting once it starts. It seems like it goes on it's fast idle, then slows down. Sometimes, it will settle and stay there until the next stop sign. Sometimes, it doesn;t happen at all. I just don;t know at which stop sign it will do it. In any event, It runs well while cruising on the open road. The biggest problem is at low rpms. If I could cruise around all day and never stop, I would have no complaints.

[danleb75]

Before coming back to work after lunch, I went in the garage to test the cold engine at idle. It stalled immediately after first push of the start button. On the second try it fired up and idled fine for about 90 secs. At that point the idle sped up, but stayed consistent for another 2 mins. So, I slowed the idle down by the black knob, and the idle slowed down and remained consistent. I gave it a couple of shots of gas, and the engine was very slow to return to idle. Maybe took about 5 secs before it slowed down, but returned to a faster idle than before. The handlebars were shaking quite a bit. I slowed it down a bit further to stop the handlebars from shaking. It idled "OK", but didn't seem content to settle completely. But nothing like when out for a ride the other night.

Biggest thing I noticed was that when giving gas, then letting off, the engine was slow to return back to normal idle. But it was like this before the FI2000 install as well. I remember on my Meanstreak, when giving a shot of throttle, it always returned rather quickly to normal idle.

Just trying to best describe my condition as descriptively as I can without all the names of the mechanical parts. I plan to have one of my buddies test the bike with a torch to see if he can tell me if there a vacuum leak. He may not be able to tell me where, but at least if he holds the torch over each of the "dog-bowls", then at least I can rule it out or not.

Hoping to get to see him before the end of the week.

[ringadingh]

If you can't find the problem, try disconnecting the processor, and see if that helps it idle like it used to. There may be a slim chance you have a defective fuel processor.

[macmac]

With 2 dog bowls on the bike the only one doing anything is the left side as seated. The right side one is sealed air tight.

Why can't you point a torch not lit at the bike? I suppose you can stuff the torch turned on into the left side intake, and at least hear that.

What yuou said about a slow return to idle even before the cobra was intalled means this was a air leak before you installed the cobra. The engine is getting extra air not metered which will lean out the engine.

These engines bare bones stock are overly lean as is, getting a vac leak will make it leaner than that. This isn't just something you can live with, unless cooked engines is no problem in your wallet.

What is it about the tests that you can't do? I am not understanding this.

I am going to read post 1 and the rest of the thread. I need to know whats on the bike and how this install was done.

[blowndodge]

Ya know mac the ICS solenoids control the fast idle at startup. Wonder if he should unplugged them and try a cold start just keeping it running with the throttle and see if the idle is settled down. Mine are hooked up and my bike starts then idle gets a little low then speeds up for about a minute until warm.. Maybe thats whats acting up?

[macmac]

Year make and model haven't been stated yet.

To me that makes no difference yet. http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

It is either a 1500 or a 1600.

It has a K&N left side only air filter, the right side is stock.
This bike has working ISC's and working reed valves.

The exhaust is modified by de-baffeling.

A cobra fuel modual was installed, but BEFORE that this bike did not like to return to a idle speed quickly.

When the cobra fuel modual was installed the setting numbers were set to book spec.


Due to longer delays returning to idle these settings were reduced more or less by a random guess.

IS THE ABOVE CORRECT?


The idle rpm goes up and down rapidly, once the engine is warmed. The revs go sky high and then drop with me doing nothing.

IS THAT CORRECT?

OR

This engine tends to rev steady but a bit to high any time I close the throttle grip?


I am trying to establish a base starting point.

At this time it might be a wise idea to turn the cobra all off, just with the screw pots.

Make these answers that way.

THEN WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING TURN POT 1 TO BEST IDLE.

THEN SAY SO, AND TELL US WHAT HAPPENS THEN.

not yelling just stressing what I need to know. Add why you can't aim propane at the engine.

[danleb75]

Macmac, everything you said above is correct. The bike is an 05 Nomad 1600 with 15000 kms (9000 miles). I bought it used in 2009 with 3400km.

To answer your question about the idle condition, I wouldn't say it jumps up and down rapidly. I would say that once warm, it idles fast for 10-15 secs, then slows down for 5 secs, then speeds up for 10-15 secs, and so on.

When I give it a twist of throttle, it takes an long time to return to it idle, and once it does, it doesn't come down to the cold idle, but rather the fast idle. Once the bike is warm, it will NOT return to cold idle at all.

Before the processor was installed, it would maintain a decent idle all the time. But, it never returned quickly from a twist of the throttle.

Currently, with the bike running, I turn pot 1 from 0 to 5 and the engine speed doesn't change. However, this was done with pot 2 at 5.

I don't have a propane torch, but am going to a buddy's place tomorrow after work where I can check it with a torch. He lives about 20 miles away, and I plan on riding there with all the pots at 0. It's embarrasing driving through traffic with the bike the way it is now. I pull the clutch to coast, and the RPM's shoot up, and when I let the clutch out, the engine speed results in too much bike speed in 1st gear.

I appreciate everyone's patience with my technical in-abilities. I really do feel as though you are all trying to understand the condition and provide the best advice!!!

[danleb75]

And before the processor was installed, I would get terrible pinging going up hills in 4th and 5th at highway speeds. Also when attempting to accelerate at these speeds.

[blowndodge]

We will solve your problem Dan! dang it!

Terrible pinging living in Canada?.... that's got air leak written all over it. Your the first person living up there that has had a terrible pinging problem.

I leu of not having propane gas you could use gumout or other spray petroleum flamable product to do this testing if needed. Just be careful not to get it on paint or your skin.

As mac has pointed out raw air is entering the engine from "some source" is the likely culprit. Some nomads have had leakage at the intake manifold from the injectors and thats the first place I'd squirt the propane or other flamable spray at. If RPM's change quickly you've found the leak.

Do me a favor, open up the right side dog bowl and pull one of the wires off each small canister located at 9 and 3 O'Clock and keep them from touching any metal surface by whatever means necessary to do this test.

Put the dog bowl back on and run the bike around for awhile. I'm wondering if your fast idle solenoids are functioning properly. The bike will be a little harder to start but you should be able to keep it running with the throttle until it warms up. Let me know what happens.

When I pull mine (just because) and I chop the throttle, my Nomad slows down like I hit the brakes or a compression release. Those ICS solenoids do hold the rpms up some when slowing down.

[danleb75]

When I'll squirting this gas towards the bike, the only place I can really access without lifting the tank will be above either of the dog-bowls. If I can positively ID a leak, It'll be going to a shop somewhere. I just want to make sure I know what the problem is, before getting a bill for 4 hour labour and be no farther ahead.

Just a thought, if I have no warning lights whatsoever on the bike, I am correct in assuming that it's not a component failure such as the ECU, Throttle-position sensor, idle selenoids, etc? Wouldn't one of those failures make a light go on?

When I disconnect the idle selenoids, could I pull the black "choke" knob out until it warms up to help keep the bike running?

[upside22]

As warm as it is you shouldn't need the idle control solenoids to keep the bike running. The idle speed will change when they are unhooked but it should stay running. I've taken mine clear off and I don't have to worry about the bike idling even in 30deg weather for more than a few seconds.

Remember that to verify a vacuum leak you don't really have to point at something specific, i.e. you don't *have* to lift the tank. Just holding it under the tank for several seconds at different points might allow you to identify an speed change. Although you won't be able to tell *what* you'll at least know that it is *something*. The head on a propane torch is pretty small around, you'll be able to get it up under the tank a lot easier than you can your hand.

I'm not sure a throttle position sensor failure will cause a troublelight to come on, that might depend on the failure mode. What you have can't be a total failure.

I seem to remember reading somewhere on the internet that there a fast idle cam on the throttle control mechanism? Could the throttle control mechanism be out of adjustment causing this to happen?

[blowndodge]

A throttle position sensor and air temp sensor shows a light. I unhooked both of mine to see and the red light comes on.

[macmac]

I agree with BD. open the right side dog bowl and disable the ISC's. Pull a wire off each and wrap it in black electrical tape. The color doesn't have to be black, but by saying so I hope it points out the right tape.

leave the dog bowl off.

You might find a old fashion can of WD-40 to try. I used to use that for 35 years or more as the test fuel. l
Last year i bought a can with a built in flip up wand and that stuff refused to act like a fuel.

I have not yet bought a can with no built in wand. I am not sure if the contents in the can has changed. It helps to see where a fluid hits, hat way you can see where the area is where the leak is. getting to hear with propane is a little harder, but once you find the general area, then you can begin to narrow that down. moving the gas to and then away from items.

When misting takes place start right in the throttle plate openings. That is the first place to hear what ever happens. When this is done what happened there should happen elsewhere, when you find the flaw.

Also LOOK at the rubber tubing ends at the ICS, and at where they go on the steel tubes on the backing plate. They may be bad hoses.

With the ISC's disabled intall longer tubing to them, by pulling the rubber lines off them to the engine side.

Install longer tubing to the ISC's and see if you can draw air thru these with them disabled by mouth. You should not be able to draw any air thru them.

You have no idea how bad i want my greasey mitts all over this bike. To do that i would have to get 2 passports and come to you.

There is no way i can ride to Canada with out my Bride.

Another thing you might do which might indicate where is to start the gine let it run about 8 to 10 miutes and then shut it down and pull all 4 plugs.

Inspect the plugs looking for one too white and too clean on the center ceramic. Perhaps blistered and burnt too. That could narrow down the where this leak is, especially if it is a injector seal.

For now stay in 3rd gear mostly, turn off the pots.

I run 87 octane and have bigger hills i think than you. I am not sure exactly where it is you are, but I live 15 miles from the kanc here in NH USA. All the roads i ride are up and down the mountians bases. Mt Washington area in NH

These tools are not that expensive. I see the torch heads at yard sales all the time for 50 cents. Any hardware store worth a lick has the gas bottles for under 5 bucks.

It may well be you need to remove the nacell, and unbolt the 3 tank bolts, and place a wooden block under the tank to raise it some.

It may be the left side dog bowl and backing plate need to be removed to view the injectors well enough to point a fuel at the injector bases. As well as at that side of the intake manifolds.

No doubt the gas tank will need to be raised to find and see the vac control pod, that feeds the reed valves with air, but only the pod and smallest hose there could be a vac leak.

On the right (as seated always right and left is as seated on bike tawk) again the backing plate may need to be dropped.

This side you will check and study for 1 small hose going to the vac pod, a port capped off like it which would go to the carbon canister you probably don't have, but the port is still there and should be capped off. A factory cap.

This side of the intake manifolds need misted. The isc connections need to be misted and inspected. rubber hoses to steel back to rubber 3 times.

Yes you may leave the black knob so called choke knob out, but remember it is out.

I don't have ISC's on he bike now and I never use that choke. All that is, is a cable that works the linkage at the throttle body. It is not a real choke. Most carbed bikes don't have a real choke, and no injected anything does ever.
.................................................. ..................................................

So when the cobra unit is dialed up any, the idle slow down is a longer time than turned off right?
.................................................. .................................................. .

No warning lights means no parts failed. There is no warning lights for any vac leaks, which act like a part has failed.

What has failed is a seal, gasket, or tubing usually. In this case about the olny part that can fail isn't really failed and that is ISC which may be sticking open. A good call on BD's part too.

I don't sit here cracking the booiks i just close my eyes to see. Sometimes i don't get the best view.

[danleb75]

Macmac, I too wish you were closer. I can sense your interest in getting this bike right.

In a combination of lack of confidence, and anxiety, I have booked the bike into the local Kawa dealer tomorrow afternoon, and will leave it there for a few days. We are away to Montreal this weekend for a wedding, so I wouldn't be riding anyway. I told myself, "OK, suppose I find a vacuum leak.....it's going to end up at a shop anyway. And if not, I' no farther ahead." So, in the interest of time (read below) I might as well

What is bothering me is that my father and I are leaving for a 6-day trip on July 25th, and I want to leave with a clear conscience. We are riding down US Rte 1 to Bangor, then cross-country to Goreham NH. Down through North Conway and into Western Mass. Over to Lake George NY, up to Sherbrooke Que, up to Riviere du Loup, then back to Grand Falls NB. Apparently, there is Kawanow rally in Lake George starting July 29th. We may be there that night, but it's right around the time we'll have to be heading back home (3 days west, then 3 days back east).

I will be sure to keep you posted, as I now you are all dying to find out what's what.

[ringadingh]

Make sure to stop in and say hello if your in Lake George on the 29th. I may be there on the 28th but not real sure yet.

[danleb75]

Ringadingh, it's at the Grove Motel - or something like that? We'll likely be through there the 28th or 29th. We'll be a Black/Silver Nomad with a fairing, and a Turquoise/White Road King.

[ringadingh]

Ringadingh, it's at the Grove Motel - or something like that? We'll likely be through there the 28th or 29th. We'll be a Black/Silver Nomad with a fairing, and a Turquoise/White Road King.

We'll all be at the Fran Cove Motel in Lake George.
Hope to see you there for a visit.
And that goes for you too mac.

[danleb75]

Ok, just got back from the dealer. The fuel line from the tank behind the left side dog-bowl was pinched. It's the one that has a braided material around it. The discovered that when lifting on the left side of the tank, the idle changed. They examined the hose, and couldn't get the squished part back normal again, so they ordered me another hose. They showed me which hose is was (while still on the bike) and it's the one that's about 1/2 inch thick, as seen from the seat-side behind the left dog-bowl.

What do you guys think......does a squished fuel line from the tank = idle problems? The new one is supposed to arrive Thursday. That doesn't leave much time between the repair and our 6-day trip on Sunday.

[danleb75]

Anyone?

[trosco]

Dan,
I don't "know" if pinched line that still allowed some flow would cause your symptoms but, with the fuel pump in the tank and that line down stream from the tank it could restrict fuel flow and in effect lower fuel pressure at the injectors. Lower pressure = lower flow at the injectors at all speeds and drivablility issues would be more likely.
What I do know for sure is if you kink that line when you install a controller it stops fuel flow completely and your bike won't run at all.
And as they say, please don't ask me how I know that. http://s2.images.proboards.com/shocked.gif
T Ross

[danleb75]

It most likely wasn't 100% blocked, but maybe restricted. One thing I noticed was that the tank would vent often after rides, more than before I had installed the unit. It could be that the fuel flow was restricted before I installed the unit, causing the abnormal pinging condition I was trying to fix with the FI2000. Could have come from the factory like that, causing the bike to be extraordinarily lean to begin with.

[upside22]

Sure, a restricted fuel flow will cause a lack of power, pinging, etc. It doesn't match with a lower mile/gallon but mpg can change for a number of reasons. I've found that the summer versus winter mix has made a *big* difference in my mpg (the summer mix is much better).

Check your pot settings now and see if pot 1 makes a difference in the idle as you adjust it. If it does you'll know that you found at least a major part of any problem.

Glad to hear that you found something!

[danleb75]

When I get the bike back, I'll check that pot 1 setting. I want them to set the bike at 3-5-0 once the new fuel line is installed so that I can start from ground-zero. I'll also check the mpg next week on our trip. I didn't even get to that before because I was still trying to get it to run right.

[macmac]

Macmac, I too wish you were closer. I can sense your interest in getting this bike right.

In a combination of lack of confidence, and anxiety, I have booked the bike into the local Kawa dealer tomorrow afternoon, and will leave it there for a few days. We are away to Montreal this weekend for a wedding, so I wouldn't be riding anyway. I told myself, "OK, suppose I find a vacuum leak.....it's going to end up at a shop anyway. And if not, I' no farther ahead." So, in the interest of time (read below) I might as well

What is bothering me is that my father and I are leaving for a 6-day trip on July 25th, and I want to leave with a clear conscience. We are riding down US Rte 1 to Bangor, then cross-country to Goreham NH. Down through North Conway and into Western Mass. Over to Lake George NY, up to Sherbrooke Que, up to Riviere du Loup, then back to Grand Falls NB. Apparently, there is Kawanow rally in Lake George starting July 29th. We may be there that night, but it's right around the time we'll have to be heading back home (3 days west, then 3 days back east).

I will be sure to keep you posted, as I now you are all dying to find out what's what.



You dammned fool shoot me a pm! I live 15 miles from the entrance to the Kancamungus Highway! The east entrance! The one on CONWAY end.

I might be at Lac du St Sacremment too, but the barn and my tools won't. Lake George to you because the winners always write the history! http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

[macmac]

Ok I posted early seeing red when I found you were going to be passing my place with in 7 miles, heading to Mass from CornFlake.

To set the pots on this COBRA unit set them all OFF, then set pot 1 alone. With that done and getting best RPM, it is likely the setting will be near '3'.

Then set POT 2 at 5 if you like, but it would be better to test riide that in as hard shear acceleration as you dare in 1/4 miles runs. or maybe 1 klick runs 0.6 mile??

Then set POT 2 to three, and repeat the runs. to see which is better.

Then set pot 2 to six and repeat to see which is better.

Then depending on which is the better refine that to over all best.

[danleb75]

Macmac, I too wish you were closer. I can sense your interest in getting this bike right.

In a combination of lack of confidence, and anxiety, I have booked the bike into the local Kawa dealer tomorrow afternoon, and will leave it there for a few days. We are away to Montreal this weekend for a wedding, so I wouldn't be riding anyway. I told myself, "OK, suppose I find a vacuum leak.....it's going to end up at a shop anyway. And if not, I' no farther ahead." So, in the interest of time (read below) I might as well

What is bothering me is that my father and I are leaving for a 6-day trip on July 25th, and I want to leave with a clear conscience. We are riding down US Rte 1 to Bangor, then cross-country to Goreham NH. Down through North Conway and into Western Mass. Over to Lake George NY, up to Sherbrooke Que, up to Riviere du Loup, then back to Grand Falls NB. Apparently, there is Kawanow rally in Lake George starting July 29th. We may be there that night, but it's right around the time we'll have to be heading back home (3 days west, then 3 days back east).

I will be sure to keep you posted, as I now you are all dying to find out what's what.



You dammned fool shoot me a pm! I live 15 miles from the entrance to the Kancamungus Highway! The east entrance! The one on CONWAY end.

I might be at Lac du St Sacremment too, but the barn and my tools won't. Lake George to you because the winners always write the history! http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

I'll definitely let you know what are plans are. We have no reservations and no itinerary. We might hang out for a couple days around Laconia, then head to Lake George for a couple. During the 2 days around Laconia, we'll be making day-trips and certainly will be through the Kangamagus highway. If you're not busy during the week, we should hook up for a few miles. Or, if you are heading over to Lake George, we could hook-up and ride over as a larger group?

Let me know.

[macmac]

Yes and yes. If you go to laconia you will have passed me with in 7 miles and be 25 to 30 miles away in Laconia.

I am working on getting my ducks lined up to go to the lake. No promises yet, as the check is in the mail. If I get that check on or before the first Thusday I can go, if not i can't.

I sure will be here, and can look over the bike if you want. If you happen to be tent camping there is a field here for free.

Any rider who tells me ahead of time can use the field for free. Pretty hard to use it with out telling me first since it can only be seen from friggin space.

If we ride over to NY as a group you won't get me in Mass for it. I will take back roads to the interstate, then ride that all of about 20 miles to Vt thence Rt 4 the rest of the way to NY, then Rt 4 more to Queen Anne, where then I wll need a map myself.

I do know some kick ass roads too http://s2.images.proboards.com/grin.gif

I suggest once you clear Conway to get here as it pleases you. Then you can take a look see more and decide what's best for you.

I have work to get done as well, and the ride over to NY if it can happen will be time away from work so I will have to see how that goes once you are in the area.

I work right here most of the time. There is always some one here.